Waking Up

Bill: Welcome to the True You Podcast. You may have noticed this is the first episode, or maybe it's not. No, I'm taking that back. One of the first episodes where you don't hear a whole lot of prerecorded messaging that Marty and I recorded when we first started doing the True You podcast about by now, maybe 15 episodes ago. It just occurred to me and then I've discussed it with Marty here today. We don't really need you to hear the same thing over and over and over again that we, that we say at the beginning of every different session. So we're just gonna jump right in to whatever it is that we're gonna be talking about. And, uh, for now, since we don't have any guests scheduled for, for in the near future. Uh, Marty and I are just gonna pick whatever topics are hot for us right now. And, uh, Marty, you sent me an email. This is Dr. Martin Kettelhut. He's my co-host here on the True You Podcast. And I'm Bill Tierney, certified IFS practitioner and Results Coach, you sent me an email this morning and had a proposal for today's conversation. We've been talking about it and I said, we better hit recorder. I'm gonna run outta time here. So here we are. You wanna talk about your ideas.

Marty: Well, I'm interested in, 'cause I, I'm reading a couple of things right now that are very visionary, you know, Buckminster Fuller, um, you know, uh, guiding Spaceship Earth. I don't know people are familiar with him anymore. Um, and he, but he's a brilliant mind thinking way ahead of a lot of us. Um. died I think in the early eighties. then I'm also rereading Eck card, A New Earth, is not a brand new book either. Um, but both men and they're not alone, have, have a vision of humanity really waking up. Right from the, I'm gonna call it a parts led society by, you know, by parts led individuals. Um, and so I started thinking like, well, is this, how does that happen? Like, how does that come to be? we each have to work on ourselves and then find each other and sort of, you know, synthesize the, you know, a, a. A greater self to be led by, or is there some way that, you know, we could do it all mass or collectively? sure. I don't, I can't imagine it working from the top down. Like, you know, we got a benevolent dictator who said, okay, everybody's gotta do parts work now. I don't think that's, so I'm interested in how, you know, the, this. Top down approach that we want to our lives, self-led lives, it seems like, to have a world that works that way, it's gonna come from the bottom up and how does that happen? So that, that was the question that drove me to write this morning. I.

Bill: Yeah, and you, our conversation meandered before we hit record and went to, you know, the identification of several people who, um, have the power in, at least in the Western world here, those people that have the power also have a ton of money.

Marty: Or, or another kind of power, like we also talked about, know, self-led people like the Buddha.

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: Or Jesus Christ or, um, you know, more recently people like Ecar, right? and, and, but like you, you mentioned, uh, bill Gates. I. How his is a more self-led business than a Zuckerberg's. Zuckerberg's is a parts led business for sure, and so, you know, sort of a in-between size entity. It's not the collective of all humanity, but it is a, but it is more of a collected than one individual. It's a big company.

Bill: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay. Alright, so I I, before we get much further, I think that language is being used here that not every listener understands. I want, I don't want to just assume people know what you mean by top down, bottom down, self-led parts led. And, and the difference between a self-led business and a parts led business. So let's, do you mind, let's just slow it down and, and talk about what you mean by all those things.

Marty: Okay. This is the problem with my writing too, by the way. I ju it's, it, it all occurs to me at once. Like I'm not a linear left brain thinker. I'm a sort of a systematic systems thinker. Like I see the whole system at once and I don't know where to start.

Bill: Well, hey, as long as you're willing to slow it down and help us keep up, I, I, I don't see a problem.

Marty: Great. That's very generous.

Bill: Okay. I don't know. Is it generous? I just wanna understand what do, what do you mean by parks led?

Marty: our parts are, usually trauma induced. But, um, they represent sort of like a, a nodal moment in our development where something got stuck in a way. It didn't, it, it, it, it's still, it's still tending to and. Concern about the same issue that it was when, when it originally happened in US today. And so that's why we, we want to tend to it and bring it up to date so that can, it can be freed of that old duty and we can be led by a deeper sense of self.

Bill: Cool. Alright, so that's what I thought you meant and I wanna offer, uh, a distinction in the language because not all parts are still stuck in the past.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Parts can either be self-led or past led, or another way to say that would be self-led or burden led.

Marty: Uh.

Bill: So burden led parts are bringing a perspective and an influence that's burdened by un unresolved past events.

Marty: Yes.

Bill: And as you say, they're organized around those past events, still trying to solve them, still looking for evidence that they may happen again, and in the case of manager parts, working very hard to make sure that doesn't happen anymore. And in the case of firefighter parts reacting when it does. So, yeah. So if we go back to the idea of a parts led business or a self-led business, I think what you're saying, and the way it lands and under the way I understand it is there are businesses that are being led by people who are most mostly influenced by burdened parts

Marty: Yes.

Bill: that are trying to solve the past by, let's say, for example, accumulating money and doing better than their competitors and so on and so forth.

Marty: Yeah. Not only that, but they've got everybody in the company there, there are millions of people that work for, um, these, you know, these people we have in mind. Um, uh, so it's not just one person. He's got everybody's triggered.

Bill: Uh, absolutely. Right, right, right. Most, most good, successful, uh. Profitable businesses have a, have a vision that guides a vision and a mission that guides what everybody does in the organization so that that vision can be realized. And if the vision is self-led, then you're gonna have a self-led company

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: and, and, or you have a chance at having a self-led company. But if the vision is, is designed around strategies to solve the past, in other words, if it's a burdened. Parts led vision that runs the company, then absolutely. How can you have anything other than a burdened parts led company? Now that's, we're talking about business here, but your bus, your question is bigger than that. I mean, one of the que, one of the offers you made for today's conversation is the difference between a, I'll just restate it now. Burdened Parks led business to a self-led business,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: and the other one was. What about these examples of people in history, uh, like the Buddha and Eckhart, who still Corus is alive, um, who are self-led, uh, what would it take to get society to be self-led

Marty: Yes, yes.

Bill: So I think we're talking about all this, um, and business of course is a, is especially here in the west, is a huge part of what defines society.

Marty: Yes. Mm-hmm. A capitalist society. is

Bill: I wanna also stay, stay in, in the vernacular and what we're talking about and what it all means. Self-led. For those that aren't familiar with the Internal Family Systems model, I believe means, well, you tell me. What do you mean by self-led or I, I can do it. Do you wanna do it this time?

Marty: go.

Bill: Okay. So my understanding of self with a capital S is that. This is, um, the essence of who we are at our core. Um, before trauma has occurred, before there's been a problem that has gone unresolved in our lives. That's who we're born as the, the essence of who we are or who we were born as and who we still are, but somehow gets clouded and hidden away because of the unresolved past being taken over by parts of ourselves who volunteer to keep us safe in our lives. I. And, and to prevent us from getting hurt again. And so we lose access to that capital S self and all of the nuanced, uh, qualities and resources that come from the essence of who we are. So a self-led person is someone who's, who's recovered and, and restored or never did lose access to the essence of who they are at their core.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: And in the IFS model, uh, capital S self. Mostly is thought of as somehow a separate entity from what I understand, a separate energy or entity within a, a human being. A human, a person that is different and separate from parts, but I don't think of it that way. That, and that's a separate distinction.

Marty: Uh, you think of it in what way?

Bill: I believe that a human being shows up in the material world through parts 100% of the time, and that when self shows up. Self is showing up through a self-led part,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: and when self is not showing up, it's because burden led parts are dominating. So self is the potential in every single part of us,

Marty: Okay.

Bill: not a separate energy or entity.

Marty: So like your, is your. So like your, your essence as they talk about an ontological coaching, is that a part that's self-led?

Bill: Yeah. My essence is that the predominance of whatever parts are, are providing my perspective and the most dominant influence on who I show up as in the world.

Marty: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bill: I like that so much just because. If I'm suffering, if I'm getting tripped up, if I'm stuck, if I'm out of regulation as as we would talk about if it was a therapy conversation, then 100% of the time in my experience, it's because there's a part and a burden part that's gotten gotten activated by something that's happening in my life right now that's got it. Scared and reacting.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: And if I can slow it down, spend time with that activated burden part, then I can come back into self guidance, self energy, self-leadership.

Marty: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bill: It, it, in other words, the self of, of all those parts, including the one that got activated in the first place, begins to emerge again. I.

Marty: This is interesting. I, I didn't, we've never quite talked about this, this way. I, I can see how we've had some guests who think the former and some guests who think the latter,

Bill: Yes.

Marty: as practitioners of IFS. that raises a question for me. what holds all of these parts together or are they not held together? If we're only made apart, then what's the self?

Bill: It's an aspect of a part. It's the, it's the, it's the, it's the core essence of a part. And I, bill Tierney have been made up of parts.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: single one of 'em at its core, in essence, has a self, a self energy, and the resources that, and, and qualities that accompany that.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: That's the core of who I am. I am well, and as Rick Richards source might say, I am greater than the sum of my parts, but that's who I am.

Marty: That's what I'm interested is the, the, the, the, the U that's greater than the sum of the parts.

Bill: Yeah. When those parts are balanced and in harmonies, greatness beyond their individual edition, uh, shows up

Marty: So, but what possesses that greatness.

Bill: that unifying self-energy, I.

Marty: Oh, so there is a unified self-energy.

Bill: is shared. Yeah. If I'm one of, let's just say I'm one of my parts. This is, by the way, this isn't science and this isn't especially the truth. I don't know. It's my theory I guess. But, but the way I understand it is that it, let's just say that I, who's presenting to you right now in one of Bill Tierney's parts,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: and if you wanted to have a conversation with me as one of Bill Tierney's parts, I would tell you, oh yeah, I've got self in me. And, and other parts of Bill has have self in them as well. And the self in those other parts is just like the self in me. Mine's a little bit nuanced because I, as a part of Bill, have a, have a, um, like you might say, a personality and specialization. I'm the part of Bill that really loves to keep him organized. Let's just say,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: I'm that part of him.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: given that my, my interest in and specialty is to keep Bill organized, the self in me helps me accomplish that. Whereas the part over here that used to like to help bill write music, it's, it, it's been kind of dormant lately, but if it were to wake up again and get active, it, it would use itself to specialize in creativity, like finding lyrics and, and music that goes to get, you know, sounds that go together in a, in a pleasant way.

Marty: It sounds like, um, there's an, I an an analogy there between I. Well, it could be a company or a country, um, and you know, everybody who you know, a citizen of that country, all those parts of the country

Bill: Yep.

Marty: Americans.

Bill: Yes.

Marty: And then there's that unified sense of what America is too,

Bill: Yeah. Yeah.

Marty: right. Is the, so I guess I wanna ask, is that a good analogy? And if, and if so, then what, what is Americ? What is the, the self

Bill: What is the South of America? Is that what you're asking?

Marty: No. like, we could, we could say, well, all of those parts of America, all the individual people that make up America,

Bill: Citizens of the United States.

Marty: right.

Bill: Okay.

Marty: Um, what is it that, that they have in common? And we would point to and, and adherence to what that means. you know, uh, a

Bill: An agreement. An agreement that the Constitution is a guiding pen principle for, uh, being a citizen.

Marty: for example. Exactly. Right. Centrally, in fact, centrally that, yes. So then going back to the individual, then what, what is that that, that we would point to that constitutes the self of all these parts that Bill's made of?

Bill: I, I wanna go back to the specialty, the specialization of each individual. Like my, I, I, I like to think that, and, and now I'm not speaking as one of Bill's parts anymore. I'm speaking as Bill. Um. I like to think that, that the unified and harmonious balanced, uh, contribution of self-led, all of my self-led parts, uh, uh, produce a result, which is clarity about my purpose, what am I here for,

Marty: Uhhuh

Bill: and, and the way I have distinguished that

Marty: Constitution does for Americans.

Bill: yes. Yeah. Is that it? It, it makes sense to me. It, it rings true for me. It inspires me, it motivates me, whatever that it, this, it feels true. Uh, and I feel called forth by it. That's. That's how I know it feels good. I, I used to play a game, I may have mentioned this in, in another episode before, but I used to play a game when I was growing up with my brother and five sisters, uh, where one of us would hide something and then that person would stand in the center of where, wherever we're playing, and then give instruction to the other five people whose job it was to try to find the object. And, and the person that hid the object would give clues. It's two, two clues warmer or hotter. I.

Marty: Yeah, we

Bill: Excuse me. Colder and hot. Colder or hotter.

Marty: We played that game too.

Bill: Yeah. Okay. So I, I, it seems like it works that way inside too. Like, colder, colder, colder. Feels bad. Or bad. Or bad. Warmer. Warmer, warmer. Feels better. Better, better,

Marty: Yeah. Like this is, this is me. This is hitting the spot. I like

Bill: right? Yeah. Yeah.

Marty: if this is fulfilling my purpose,

Bill: Yes.

Marty: I.

Bill: I was talking just this morning about how, how so many of my parts just hated going to Business Network International, BNI, which was a business networking group that I put together here in Spokane, Washington, starting in about 2002, along with a couple of other business people. And, uh, we ended, eventually grew to the largest, uh, group in, in the entire eastern Washington. Um, but I always hated the idea of going. There were the parts of me just just didn't like the idea of networking, shaking hands, meeting new people, trying to sell myself, trying to get them to refer people to me. I just, something about it just felt s slimy and sleazy, and I just didn't like it. And so the night before, our Wednesday morning meeting. Uh, if I were, if I were gonna do well, if I was gonna get a return on the investment of my time and money for being there, you know, I had to pay to be a member. I essentially, I was investing three hours a week in this, in this venture. If I was, if, if, if it was gonna make any business sense at all, I needed to get a return on investment. And that meant whether I liked it or not. I should prepare the night before to go to the meeting the next day so that when I talked about the services that I offered, people would be inspired and think of people they could send me.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: If I didn't prepare, there wasn't much of a chance of that happening.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: And if all I did was dread it, make myself go and expect to get results, I was gonna be really disappointed. So on the Tuesday nights that I did prepare, and then on Wednesday mornings I did better. But here's what was universally true, whether I prepared or not, is that when I showed up on Wednesday morning, within 10 minutes, I was connected to people and loving it. I absolutely enjoyed it. Every single meeting I ever went to, once I got over my nervousness and, and the, the parts of me that were telling me that I hated it, that I didn't wanna go, and that it was a waste of time.

Marty: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bill: Even so much so that even if I didn't get referrals from clients at the time I was a mortgage lender, even if I didn't get referrals for clients, I felt like it was time well spent because I was getting something of, of greater value than the money I hoped to get from getting referrals. And that was connection with other people.

Marty: So this is helping me understand why I sort of intuitively these doubts that, you know, and it sounds silly to think that, you know, you, you could, regular, you know, like in enforce from the top down that everybody's going to get self-led, um, because it sounds like it. It is the. Enlightenment of all those people that adds up to a self-led society, just like the, you know, all of our parts as they get updated and, and, um, uh, freed up and, and, and brought on board that they, then you could say, well, that individual is being self-led. Right?

Bill: Right.

Marty: So then if we go to the companies. You know that it's a collective entity of sorts. Of course the, you know, if there's one guy at the top running the whole thing, then a lot of shit is going to downhill.

Bill: Oh yeah.

Marty: But the way that the company itself would come to be self-led would be like if people came together and say, Hey. What, what do you say? Let's, let's lead from love, let's lead from compassion, let's lead from wisdom as opposed to, you know, just trying to make more money than the next guy, or, or trying to have more power than the next guy or, or because of a vendetta or something like that. Right.

Bill: Yep.

Marty: So would expect then if, like, if we look at the difference between, I'm just gonna use these two random examples. Zuckerberg's organization versus a Bill Gates organization. You're gonna see Bill and his company. They're more self-led conversations and they add up to a more self-led company, Zuckerberg has in, inspired self selfishness amongst the people. They are all in it for themselves. and so that's why his company is, is oblivious to our needs as they are.

Bill: I would assume that all of that's true. I don't know if it is or not, but I'm under

Marty: just speculating, given the theory that we've laid out.

Bill: Exactly. And, and, and I just wanna point out that maybe Zuckerberg and Meta, uh, are, are, are not that way. I don't know. I don't know, but, but if, let's just, maybe, maybe we're safer to, okay. Maybe we should just say company and company B, um, rather than,

Marty: don't mind. I don't mind if I'm wrong.

Bill: oh, you already know, you already, so this is something that you already know. Okay. So that's fine. Uh, here, here's where I think we may really benefit in this conversation, and that is to talk about, well, what would it look like? How would we know if it was a self-led company?

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: And I wanna suggest that the way we would know is we, we would see manifestation and evidence of the qualities of self showing up.

Marty: Right.

Bill: And, and there are, you know, for IF those that are trained in the IFS model, we know we refer to the eight Cs and the five Ps, which are the qualities of, of self. But, but I've got a, a, a more expense extensive list than those eight C's and the five P's. And, uh, that include all the eight C's and the five P's, but a few other words too that include. Things like love, integrity, authenticity, transparency, and wisdom. What else? And the, I'll just mention the cease as well. Compassion. Let's just, if we looked at each one of 'em, compassion. If a company is self-led, that means that it's gonna be a company that's led by and through the perspective of decisions are made through the perspective of compassion.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Decisions are made, actions are taken, people are hired, disciplined. People are disciplined in as employees through the, uh, the lens of capacity, or excuse me, of compassion. The next word is capacity.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: A company that is self-led is probably gonna have the capacity to be with people even then, if those people have problems to serve people. Uh, and to have the capacity to serve people, even if it doesn't match, let's just say, um, a translation into the, the bottom line being in the black instead of the red

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: curiosity, rather than jumping to conclusions, oh, this person's lazy. This person didn't show up for work today because they're lazy. Uh, curiosity. I wonder what's happening with Bob. Why is he, why isn't he here today? Bob seems like he's been off lately. Oh yeah, he's, he's a shitty employee at now. Well, maybe not. Maybe Bob's got some something going on. Can we be curious and just be open to finding out courage? Maybe this is a company where it's safe enough to be scared. It's safe enough to have courageous conversations.

Marty: Right, right. Or, or to um, uh, to yeah, to allow, 'cause we're talking about, well, we're talking about, uh, people who have platforms to allow disagreement on your platform. That takes courage.

Bill: Yes, yes. Yeah. Much different.

Marty: much easier to just say, if anybody disagrees with me, shoot 'em.

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: easier.

Bill: Yeah. Yeah. Certainly not self-led. Um, sometimes I think that the word self was a bad choice to describe what it is that Dick Schwartz means by the core essence of who we are, capital S self, because that word self in the lower case often means just the opposite. Yeah. It means that it means, it means what's often referred to as ego. Um. Or, or what we often, what we now understand in the IFS lens as, uh, through the IFS lens as, as burden led parts, selfish, self-centered, self-focused, self-driven, self-promoting, you know, that those are all kind of negative criticisms of a, of a person. And now we're gonna take the very same word and put a capital S on it and, and say, this is who we really are. Yeah. It's, it is a little confusing.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: But so it's easier to look at these other things like, and by the way, each of these other words that describe the, the qualities of self can be, uh, cannibalized and, and used in, in a non self-led way. Like, let, let me pretend to be compassionate. Let me use compassion or what appears to be compassionate to get what it is that I want.

Marty: I have a, by the way too,

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: um, in the city yoga spiritual tradition, which is comes from cashmere. It's a sha stick, um, tradition, meaning Shiva is the Lord of all is what Shiva stands for. is only the self with a capital S. All of the generations of self are called other things, you know, like. Ego, although they don't use that word, but it's a translation of that word. Or you know, the senses or the sensual self and like there, there are, think 14 different TFAs. They're called principles that are less than the self of the capital S, but they don't have a, oh, that's just your small self there. Because the idea is, let's lead with the self.

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: self.

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: So

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: interesting comparison,

Bill: It is, it is. It's it, it's sounds very aligned, in fact. Yeah. Yeah. I'm my, where my mind's going right now is, so what, what is it that, that causes an individual to be more burden led than self-led? Um,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: and, and this might get in a little bit into the conversation or we might be able to use the conversation around addiction and recovery to address this. So, so for example, traditional thinking around addiction and recovery is that recovery means that, that the, that we're no longer that we've been liberated from the addiction. Uh, but what I'm recognizing is that recovery really would mean that we have healed that which required the addiction in the first place.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: And it's that that gets in the way of a self-led individual or a self-led company, is that which addiction is needed to manage? Am I making sense?

Marty: I didn't understand the last phrase. Addiction is needed to

Bill: To manage

Marty: manage.

Bill: the, the, the, that which we need to recover from.

Marty: I see. It's a survival mechanism.

Bill: Yes. Yeah, it, whether the addiction helps to numb or, you know, pumps up dopamine and serotonins and adrenaline and that sort of thing to, to have a different internal experience than the one that's otherwise too painful.

Marty: Yep. Yep.

Bill: So addiction isn't just, uh, you know, so for, for the longest time. In my recovery starting in 1982, it didn't seem to matter how many times I heard from, from people in my recovery community. This is not a moral issue. I also heard in even more powerful ways, this is a moral issue.

Marty: Hmm.

Bill: This this is about the reason that you have addiction or ever have had addiction is because of morality, because, um, because you lack integrity because. Because you lie, because you cheat, because you still, because you are resentful, because you hurt people, because you live in fear, because you don't have a good relationship with God. There's something morally decrepit about you that has you having this addiction, and if you can solve for all of that, then you'll no longer have the addiction.

Marty: Wow. Geez. That's, that's horrible. I, I, I'm very, I'm happy to say that the 12 step group that I'm in has never said anything like that.

Bill: I am glad to hear that. I'm glad to hear that because it can't work. It is. It's just, you know what, what I, and, and I, I wanna acknowledge that, you know, this is maybe others that, that went through and trudge through this journey with me for those, the 35 years that I was involved in 12 Step may have been sitting in the very seat very next to me and had a completely different experience. But this is how I experienced it. I, I, I, it felt like I just extended from my violent alcoholic Catholic family into Alcoholics Anonymous at the age of 27, and all the same rules and principles applied could be that somebody else who landed in a seat next to me on the very same day, November 15th, 1982, could have had the very same experience with me and had it had processed it in a, in a completely different way. They might have seen it as loving and supportive and kind and generous. I, I felt it as pressure and threat and, and, and fear and, and, uh, and shame. Like I was doing anything and everything that I could to avoid drinking so that I didn't experience even worse consequences than what drinking was presenting in my life.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: And that's the way I was hearing it. I was surviving in that way,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: only for 21 years of the first 21 years of my sobriety,

Marty: And now we're in which year?

Bill: currently 42.

Marty: So self entered halfway through this time.

Bill: Well, it was introduced, I'll say it in, yeah. I was introduced to the experience of inner, the ability to be of self-aware. I'll say it that way, at about 21, 22 years, everything el Prior to that time, it was completely externally focused. What's out there that's safe and what's out there? That's a threat. The answer, by the way, was most of it's a threat. And very little of it is safe. So let's limit life. Let's be safe, let's do things right. Let's do things perfectly. Let's perform. And anything that's less than perfect and, and anything that's less than what I'm proud of that, that have performed, I need to hide. I just need to hide all that.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: So no matter what the words of the steps said and say that's, those were my, that was my program.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Do it right. Do it perfectly. Hide what isn't right, and perfect.

Marty: Oh God. And that's the thing, that's the stuff that makes, that drives people to alcohol.

Bill: Yes.

Marty: Geez. Oh my gosh.

Bill: How did I stay sober?

Marty: How did you break free is what I want to know.

Bill: well, it started with Byron Katie,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: uh, and, and then once I got Byron Katie, I recognized that the kind of therapy that I was getting was not helpful. Because it was talk therapy that from, and, and the, the support I was getting was, was analyzing me and, and explaining me to me. And I, I didn't agree and I didn't matter that I didn't agree. So I kinda shit canned that I stopped that kind of therapy and just went to looking at me.

Marty: Just a bracketed, convers uh, observation. We did ask the question a few minutes ago, like, what makes for. A pers a self-led person versus somebody who's mostly led by traumatized parts.

Bill: Yes,

Marty: And it sounds like there's got to be some crack where the sun can get in at some point.

Bill: self-awareness.

Marty: Self-awareness has to get in there somehow because when I look at a lot of people in my life, they're, they're not selves that I love them. But they're not self-led. And, and the, the, there's been no crack in that. There's no self-awareness.

Bill: Well, exactly. That's what I'm saying. It sounds like you're, you're hearing what I'm saying is that that crack that you're describing is self-awareness. So the question now becomes how do you begin? Well, how do you, how do you begin to have self-awareness?

Marty: Right. I.

Bill: I had 15 years before I be had my first access to self-awareness. I was sitting in a therapist office that said, asked me a question. He said, Hey Bill, you ever just kinda sit back and watch yourself and get curious about why you do the things that you do? Something like that. And I looked at him and I thought, okay, where's the punchline? Are you just messing with me here? What are you, what are you talking about? I had no idea what he was talking about. And at that point I was probably. I guess that must have been a little more than 15 years earlier because I was two years sober.

Marty: I have a client like that. thinks I'm telling like some kind of joke or, or just like totally lost. discussing a car and he's like, that sounds like a bunch of garbled. He go to me, I don't understand what he's talking about. No crack of self-awareness.

Bill: So how do you access, how do you develop self-awareness? And I can tell you how it began for me, but what about you? Have you always been self-aware or did, was there a time in your life when you began to have self-awareness?

Marty: Mm-hmm. Yes,

Bill: What happened?

Marty: late nineties.

Bill: What brought it about? What were the elements of that experience?

Marty: Well, it started out with my just recognizing the, the weight of. My upbringing and my schooling and how it was all driving me in a direction that wasn't ultimately what, you know, gonna make me happy. You know, it wasn't what I wanted and I, I was just trying to be the best at it, but it was, I, I started realizing like, this is not going in the right direction I don't know anything else. Right. then, and then I met someone who said, I get it. You, you don't have an alternative. You, you, you haven't experienced anything else. That got me curious then like, oh, well what would it be to experience something else and in rapid succession, like God planned it. I met the right people to be introduced to the Landmark Forum, and then those people introduced me to, um, my spiritual teacher, and poof, it all unfolded.

Bill: Your perfect path. Yes. By the way, I, I think that we all do have our own perfect path and we just have to discover it for ourselves. So someone listening to the description of what you, just, your description of how you began to access self-awareness. I listen to that and say, well, that's not for me.

Marty: Of course,

Bill: I'm not gonna landmark education and,

Marty: no. I get it.

Bill: and I'm not gonna do that spiritual, but, and.

Marty: I, I know people who are much more enlightened than I am that didn't have that path.

Bill: Yeah, everybody's path is unique, I believe, and, and it's also, uh, dare I say divine, I'm, you said it's like God laid it out. Uh, I, I, I don't, I. I don't trust myself enough to understand what that means, what, what, what it even means that God would do that. But I believe it's absolutely possible. I, it feels divine to me. It feels like there's divine guidance if somehow, I don't know how or why that happens, but it seems to that at the, just the perfectly right time, I personally was desperate enough to be willing to drive across the state and go sit in a church. I hated churches and listen to this crazy lady who had this. Amazing experience. She claimed, I didn't believe it, where she went to sleep one night as a workaholic, alcoholic, crazy, raging woman, and woke up the next morning completely, completely at peace and disconnected from any meaning, making thoughts, freedom. She was completely enlightened the next morning. She doesn't say it that way, but that's, that's what she's describing. Then over the course of several years, developed a process that. Helps other people without having to go, go to the extreme lengths that she did or have a, have that kind of experience to gradually become more enlightened, to become more self-aware.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: called it the work. And it's Byron Katie.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: So that was the introduction for me, and I resisted it. It was a four hour experience that I had over there. I resisted three and a half hours of it. And then finally something caught for me. Oh, oh. Oh, this makes sense. And, and, and I didn't notice it at the time, but the, the focus was inside for the first time in my life.

Marty: Yep. Exactly.

Bill: been, I would have to say an, an internal focus addict, a self-awareness addict ever since

Marty: Yeah, same here.

Bill: the nature of my, my,

Marty: My, yeah, my, my friend Mike, he calls it, uh, he says, you're a transformation junkie.

Bill: yeah, that's a good way to put it. That's fine. Yeah. Yeah. So. I, I think we've really named something important here that, that to be self-led. Whether you're aware of and interested in the internal family systems model or not. What we mean by self-led is to be to be guided from the inside out, by the essence and core of your, of yourself. And to know and recognize that as these higher qualities and, and, and as a sense of, of being far more resourced than the, the state of survival and competition, um, and resentment and suffering. Um, and so what, what we've named here is to begin to, to get on that journey. Yours will be unique, but what we all will have in common is that it'll be a switch from focusing externally, which of course we're gonna do because we have to survive to beginning to look inside and getting curious about what's going on in there. So, so a switch to some, some way to switch to self-awareness, whatever that looks like for you.

Marty: Yeah, and it's in that that I say things like it was divinely guided be because self was leading. I wasn't leading, I wasn't aware yet. Self was leading.

Bill: The eye that thought it was you wasn't leading

Marty: Mm-hmm. Exactly.

Bill: right. It may and and maybe it's that very same eye that became self-led and realized. That who it thought it was is not who, who you are at all.

Marty: Well, there is something like cont, there's some continuity. It's not like I didn't recognize myself anymore, like it was still me. Right?

Bill: Yep. Yep.

Marty: So something was contiguous and contiguous too. It was the same body as well, so yeah.

Bill: I love this conversation. As usual, didn't know it was gonna land here. Oh, one more thing I wanted to say. We, we said this be, you said this, I guess we said it, we combined it, our thoughts together for this to say this before we hit record. Earlier you said you were just doing your best late nineties, you were just doing your best.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: And earlier when you used that same phrase, I said, there's a big difference between doing your best and being your best. And because doing your best implies effort. And there's also another element of self being, self-led. I like the term, by the way, self energized. There's a, there's a difference between being or there's an element of being self energized, that that is just being your best without all the effort. To be our best doesn't require effort. In fact, effort might prevent us from being our best because we're too busy doing our best.

Marty: Yes. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, all of those people that we mentioned and Miller, um, who we would say, I. We've consistently self-led lives. We, uh, of them complain about the effort that life takes. They're, they're all in a very easeful place about everything that gets presented to them. It's easy or not easy, but easy.

Bill: Yeah, they're useful.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Yeah. Yeah. Alright, Marni, need to wrap it up and get ready for my men's group here.

Marty: Okay.

Bill: Great with you. Oh, I will, guaranteed. All right. Take care.