Marty: Welcome to the True You Podcast. Another brilliant episode.

Bill: We shall see, right?

Marty: Well, I I'm making a promise right

Bill: , that's quite a declaration.

Marty: then the reason is because Bill Tierney, IFS, uh, coach and results producer, and me Martin Kettle Hut. As you know, uh, author of Leadership as Relation, we're here today with Jason Del, is that how you say it?

Jason: Yeah, I think you got it. Yeah.

Marty: wayde. Great. Good. So there you hear his voice and, um, he's also a coach and we're really happy to have him with us today. and we're talk about the, the journey to the true you and. These different coaching ways, way the different ways coaching gets at the true, you and Jason's had a number of experiences, um, that I hope he'll get to share with us too, um, on his personal journey to the true him.

Jason: Hmm.

Marty: So let me just read this introduction. Um, and I'm just gonna read for a second here. What. Just to get people oriented to you, Jason is a former two sport division one athlete and combat tested Marine Corps officer, who now guides leaders through deep inner transformation. After losing his father and the identities he once clung to son Athlete Warrior, Jason embarked on the journey of profound healing, purpose and spiritual awakening. Through his work at Gone Beyond Leadership, that's his coaching company, he helps high performing leaders move beyond external achievement with a deeper, truer source of power, from love, freedom, and wholeness. He's a devoted father of four kids, a husband of course, and a warrior for the human spirit standing for new kind of leadership, soulful, embodied, and unshakably rooted in truth. So that's who we got on the line today, folks.

Bill: I am excited.

Jason: I'm fired up. Uh, yeah. Thanks Martin.

Bill: I was gonna ask you, Jason, how is it to hear, hear your own bio read out loud?

Jason: in it and letting myself, yeah, it was, it was great.

Bill: Yeah. Cool. Do you mind, uh, Marty, do you mind if I ask a couple of questions that probably aren't gonna be in the flow of what we end up talking about?

Marty: well, let's let them be in the flow of what we're talking about. Go right ahead.

Bill: Well, a couple things jumped out at me. Uh, the combat tested. I I, I'd like to hear a little bit about that, if you don't mind sharing that.

Jason: Yeah. I, um, so I went to a, an Ivy League school and. Everyone was like getting ready to get a job and they were like investment banking, consulting. And I grew up and my dad was a, a gym teacher. My mom was a, a dentist, a dental assistant bartender. uh, I'm like, what are these jobs Like? I don't even know what the hell investment banking is. And, uh, I just happened to be reading this book and it was about the story of a, leading Marines in combat and I got to the end of the book and auth, he, the author was a Dartmouth graduate and um, and that just. Kind of like, I was like, this is what I want to do. I want to go lead Marines in combat. I want to have this experience of training. And, um, and yeah, that kind of set me off on this path. And I spent about eight years in the Marine Corps, um, as an infantry officer led uh, yeah, Marines on two different deployments to Afghanistan. And it was just a, it was, it was everything. It was like a peak life experience from like an intensity perspective. From seeing like a third world country, a nation that's been worn, war torn forever. And then just seeing like the, the heart of humanity too at the core of it all. And, uh, and yeah, and that was, you know, leading these missions for, you know, there were seven month deployments, you know, as like a 23-year-old. Um, you know, it was so, it was just like a, a real dive into like, you go. Like go lead and accomplish the mission. Um, so yeah, it was a.

Bill: With, with everything at.

Marty: Yeah, with life at stake.

Jason: Yeah. With

Bill: man.

Jason: Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Bill: Incredible. How old are you now?

Marty: that that contributed to the Your True You?

Jason: yeah. In a, in a lot of ways, like one, like a deep reverence for life, like in a really raw way. Like one of my, um, friends, my platoon sergeant, he was killed in combat on a mission, and, uh, and he was a, he was an incredible father, like. an amazing father of three. And, uh, and I had gotten close with his kids and his wife and fatherhood has been a huge, a huge component of my journey of being human and what it means to be human. And, and I, I hold so much more reverence in that role, um, because of that a lot of ways. Yeah.

Marty: Got it.

Jason: Yeah.

Bill: I bet.

Marty: Go.

Bill: You said you were 23 when this was happening, and you did it for about eight years. That puts you at about 31 then by the time you got outta the Marines. Is that right?

Jason: about. Yep.

Bill: And you're how old now?

Jason: Uh, I'm gonna be 40 in July.

Bill: Yeah. Congratulations. That's a big milestone. Yes. And I don't, I, I'm gonna say this and, and, and I don't know if I can, I'll just, I'll just say it. I mean, I so appreciate the sacrifice that you made. I. To do that. I, I so appreciate and so value our freedom, and I recognize that lives have been lost for it. So I just wanna acknowledge you and everyone else that does that for us. Thank you.

Jason: Yeah. Thank you. Received. I appreciate that. I, and I, I, I always say this and I, and I really mean it like so sincerely like it was. It was like an honor and a, and a gift of an opportunity for me to have that experience to, to lead Marines and to, um, and to be of service. And you know, now I can, like, I have a bit of an elevated perspective on operations and war and, would I choose that path? I don't know. But at the time, I know I was choosing from like a deep place of wanting to be of service and, and I could see the goodness in a lot of the work that was being done.

Bill: Yeah. And lots of history has passed, uh, uh, since then, uh, in, in the, in the world, in our, in our local politics. And, and I'm, and that could be a complete different conversation, which I'd also love to have with you, but I'll, I'll hand it back to Marty here, to, to, to guide the conversation around True you.

Marty: Well, I would like to pick up where we, uh, left off before we pressed record. Um, we were talking about and differences in our upbringing as coaches. And, um, one thing that we have in common, so maybe we could use that as a point of departure in the conversation, is ontological coaching. And it might even be a good way to start by just having us each give our take on what that is and then go from there. And you could start, Jason.

Jason: Oof. Yeah. Yeah, no, I love, um, yeah. The way I think about ontological work, like two things jump out is one is just fundamentally distinguishing, um, we're coming from, where we're showing up in the world. Like, are we showing up from our true nature, from the essence of who we are or, or from these parts or egoic parts that are protecting ourselves and, you know, just creating defensive structures. so that's like one component, probably the one that like really. home for me, like connecting to that essence and being like, oh wow, I can just show up and like be that and I don't need to like try and perform and do all these things to be successful. And then the other piece, which I think is just like super but I think it can get us into a bit more of the mental of it, is just being able to distinguish our relationship to everything. You know, how are we actually relating to. People, partners ourselves, the world around us, you know, all these different structures. So those are the kind of two things that hold around the, the ontological lens.

Marty: Mm-hmm. Um, so K comes before T, so I get to go next.

Bill: , great.

Jason: You'll have nothing, nothing left for you, bill.

Marty: Oh, there'll be

Jason: Yeah.

Bill: Yes, they will.

Marty: Um. I, I totally agree with the two things you said. One of the things that really amazes me about ontological coaching and ontology in general is that it seems to be what causes the difference. It has causal power.

Jason: Hmm.

Marty: It like, and this is one of the things that I think sometimes when people talk about ontological culture, it kind of gets lost. Like, who are you being in the matter? Like, well, I'm gonna be my best, or you know, I'm gonna be joyful. Or some is what makes the difference. Like that is what produces a difference how you be. And, you know, I can, I can give lots of examples, but some of the main ones for me come from my personal life. Like I went from a career as an academic, so I was being academic right. To, to, to being of service. Right. And the, the, the difference in the results that get produced, like a stack of papers.

Jason: Hmm.

Marty: Versus, you know, people making more money, people living more joyfully, you know, people being more fulfilled, um, you know, uh, uh, businesses being built, like the difference in the result is amazing. And that's because of who I was being, the difference in who I was being. So that's, that's one of the main things that just delights me about being in ontological coaching.

Bill: So I'll jump in. Uh, I, I have to include some history too, just to maybe provide some context around. What a juggernaut this has been for me to even wrap my mind around what, what the hell is ontological coaching? Of course, I know what it is now, but, but when I entered into the coach training program, uh, accomplishment coaching in 2015, and I, I heard language that I wasn't accustomed to hearing before context and ways of being, uh, it really took a lot for me to even understand. Really what, what was being discussed here? I had mentioned just before we hit record, that I had been a part-time coach for about four and a half years while I was still working full-time as a mortgage loan officer, uh, when I began my coaching practice. And I just used everything that, in me, everything that I had discovered that had worked for me. So, little bits of landmark education, which of course is ontological. Little bits of Byron Katie. Uh. Which, which just helps to challenge beliefs and, and in effect, cha changes our way of being. Of course, uh, everything from 12 Step that actually stuck and, and worked for me after, by that time about 20, 0, 30 years, I suppose, of, of involvement in 12 Step. Uh, and so. Accomplishment Coaching introduced me as, as Landmark did to these concepts and these ideas of just what both of you has said and at the core of it for me. What I now understand and what I began to understand then was that there is one true, authentic, essential version of myself that when I am being, that, as you say, Marty, when I'm being, that that attracts. To me, anything and everything that I'm, the way I think about it is that I'm supposed to be involved with, and it all culminates in this present moment. And so when I'm helping my coaching clients now, especially since just months after I completed that coach training program, uh, I found that was floundering. I'd lost what I previously had, uh, felt, was confidence that I earned from being a good coach and actually helping people. Going through that, that coach training program at the accomplishment coaching, I just really floundered because, and I didn't understand it then, but I understand it now because I was so triggered from my trauma of growing up in an alcoholic violent family.

Jason: Hmm.

Bill: I was so triggered with the things that were being discussed and the things I was being asked to consider and to do that, I lost every bit of confidence that I had and, and I had by then had already quit my mortgage originator job. So I was desperate to build a coaching practice and terrified of asking anybody to hire me as a coach. 'cause I didn't, I felt like a fraud. So that threw me into IFS internal family systems. And when that happened, everything changed, and almost immediately, what previously had been merit based, performance based confidence that I had earned now became an expression of my core essence.

Marty: Hmm mm-hmm.

Jason: Hmm.

Marty: That's great. So I think Jason has a few things to say to you about that. And then I would invite you, Jason, to tell us more about where you've taken that in your own, own journey, in your own practice.

Jason: Yeah. Um, yeah. I appreciate so much of what you both shared, like the I. The, um, the thing I really took away from the last, where you kind of took that bill was like, like this work, like our being can really come through so powerfully when we can take all of these like modalities or structures or tools, uh, and really integrate them in a way that like just flows through us as like, this is, yeah, I've learned all these things. I understand these things in different ways, but like. Can they flow through me, um, through like a presence that nobody can bring into a space other than, than, than I can. Um, and I, and I just, I love, like, so I'll, I'll, yeah. Like I've, this past year I've really transitioned into, and it's been really confronting for me, like moving away from like trying to move away from ontological work in the sense of like guiding people deeper into like their actual experience of what's happening right now. Because I think we spend so much time in our mind trying to think about like, what's next, trying to understand things, trying to figure it out, trying to rationalize it, and that's all good and valuable and useful. Um, but I find that it just, it kind of keeps us in this same like self-improvement paradigm. always like kind of just doing something to like fix some deeper self deficiency. Um, we kind of just end up staying on that. I. Hamster wheel over and over again. So the, the work that I'm really leaning into right now is I, I'd say it's like a presence centric approach, which is like, can I bring people into like what it's like to actually be them and can we actually tap into that, like right now, right here, between the two of us in this space it's not me like coaching from distance or seeing context that they can't see. It's me being like right here with them, understanding what it's like to be them and helping them actually. By like feeding back what I'm hearing and trying to understand what it's like to be them. They actually continue to drop deeper into what it's actually like to be them. I just, it's been such a gift for me to like, spend my time in that space. 'cause it's like, it's, it's almost a deeper level of like not having to try or do, it's like, it actually like touching what it feels like to be me. Uh, literally somatically, you know, from a process perspective. Um. And then I've, and then, and then from a parts perspective, like I'm really dropping into what's here right now, how, you know, more often than not, there's a part that's triggered and, and alive and active and it's like, amazing. What a gift to like, notice that and actually work with it right now while it's here. Uh, and then see what unfolds from that. So yeah, that's, that's kind of like, I'm excited about that. And, um, and, and it's, it's scary supporting people in that way for me.

Marty: Yeah. I, I, I know what you mean. Um, I went from the standard ontological approach to. Um, my first, the, the content of my first book, which is a summary of what I had been doing in my coaching for about 10 years, which is the, the name of the book is Listen Till You Disappear. Like You Disappear and you become the same experience as the person that you listen to, right? That's, that, that was the idea. And it is the idea. And, and one of the things, speaking of Landmark, that impressed me so much in the training, um. was this exercise where you recreate the other person. Right. You're, you're being so with them that you, would practice that this, um, as leaders in the organization, like somebody would start naming colors and you would repeat them back. You'd recreate the color that they were named. They were random, and you would get to the point where you could anticipate the color. Like they would, you would say, red before they said red. And it was just like red. Green, red, green, yellow, blue, yellow, blue, blue, blue, blue. Like you, you'd just catch up and be in there

Jason: Yeah.

Marty: it was amazing. And that so impressed me that that became the way that I coach, right? Just listening until ego appears and

Jason: Hmm.

Marty: there for them. So I, it's scary. Like I loved what you said. It's scary, you know, for them too.

Jason: Yeah. Yeah, because like as coach, I think a lot of, a lot of times we could even be doing really powerful ontological work and like. Step back, but we're always, we can always kind of see like where the conversation can go, but like in this lens, I'm really committed to like whatever unfolds going in that direction. And like, and there is no, and you know, the same idea, the same way you would work with the part which is like to work with the part powerfully. Like I can't have a change agenda, it feels that, and it, it's, it's, it's just gonna clash. So it's like, can I be with this person too without any change agenda? And that almost goes against the whole. Context of coaching, which is like, we're always trying to change something, but it, but it's one of the more beautiful paradoxes I've tapped into. 'cause it's like when we, just like nature, when we don't change things, things change.

Marty: right. Well, I think it is that. Recreation mirroring, that cau, that causes a moment of where things are no longer gonna be the same. It doesn't cause an agenda. It doesn't go in any particular direction, but it means things must change.

Jason: yeah,

Marty: we've already, we've already gotten this moment. So now the next moment is wide open.

Jason: yeah,

Marty: That's how it occurs for me.

Jason: yeah, yeah. It totally occurs that way and I, and it, and it's a, when you do that, like we're actually creating space for like our wholeness to express itself. More and more and it just emerges and you're like, oh, that's been here all along. then when people can actually start to notice that and feel it, and then you guide them into that ex, like deep into that experience to embody, you know, whatever they're feeling, whether it's strength, compassion, confidence. Like they, they, they, they literally recognize that that's what they are. And they always have been. But they, from a, a really deeply embodied sense, not just like an intellectual. Yeah, I'm strong, I'm a. It's like, no, I, I can feel it in my body right now. How?

Marty: I'm gonna some strength here.

Jason: Yeah. Yeah,

Bill: Hmm,

Jason: yeah, yeah,

Bill: several things. One of the things I wanna comment about is, is your comfort in talking about parts, and I'm curious about that. How, how do you know about parts?

Jason: yeah. Um, I had a coach who like, I. Would like dangle, like the idea of parts with me and I'm, I don't know. And it really resonated and I started to just drop into some really like deep emotional space and like being like what? And uh, and then I started to work with a therapist who did parts work and I would, I would literally like snap of a fingers. Be deep into my experience and be, and, and frankly, like more often than not in like a puddle of tears connecting so beautifully to these parts of me from, you know, from high school as a young boy. And, and it just, it created so much space in what I actually wanted, where I wanted to go, the action I, you know, whatever it was I needed to, needed to do, like, it just started to flow so much more naturally. And, uh. So, yeah, I've read, you know, all the Richard Schwartz's stuff and, and, and I've done some, I'm in a program now, a coaching container where the heart of the work is in this present centric approach, like to, to go deeper into the depths. It's, it has basically has like four layers to it. So you, you can work with the person you're working with, you meet them where they're at, so be at the depth of parts, depth of process. depth of presence and absence or the depth of non-duality. And you could be in any of those parts, but if somebody is at the depth of parts, we've gotta meet them at that depth. Or we're, you know, ontological or contextual conversations is just gonna get just met with resistance. And that's kind of what I've found in my own work too.

Bill: What, what uh, program are you referring to?

Jason: Um, Steve March's work with the Ali.

Bill: Olivia. Okay. Yeah,

Jason: yeah. I've found it to be really just really grounded and connected and beautiful and,

Bill: yeah,

Jason: yeah.

Bill: yeah. I'm somewhat familiar and love it. Love what I know about it. Uh, I'll, I'll make sure that Ari puts some, a link

Jason: Yeah.

Bill: that in, into our show notes. Uh, the other thing I, that I'm sitting with is scary. The word scary. You both agreed that it's scary. And I can find scary, uh, in terms of having these deep, deep conversations, but I'm curious of what that looks like for, for you, Jason. What, what's scary about doing this depth of work?

Jason: Yeah. Um, great question. Like, I think it's like, uh. I think it's like in the contextual nature, like I can, I, I have a natural propensity to like be able to kind of like jump in and always like guide, support, lead, make sure we're moving in a direction that's like, feels useful.

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Jason: but when I'm mirroring with like, when I'm mirroring someone's experience, it, it almost feels like I'm wasting time. are we doing here? Um, how is this valuable? And it's always triggering that part of me that's like, where are we going? Where's this gonna go? What's, what's gonna be the outcome? So it's scary because I like, I literally am like really surrendering to the present moment and what, what continues to unfold. And, and I don't know what, what the hell that's gonna be or what we're gonna be working with. Um,

Marty: part for me

Jason: yeah.

Marty: knowing. Like I find myself preparing for, uh, a, a coaching call. Like, what did they say last time? What, what, what do we need to talk about? Where should, where does this need to go? And then I go, wait a minute. Stop it.

Jason: Yeah.

Marty: go meditate until the moment the phone rings, and then just be there.

Jason: Yeah.

Marty: And that's the scary part. Like, you know, I'm used to having a script or you know, a, a paper to read in, in, in the academy or, you know, like, and so that's, that's a big part of the scariness for me is like, know, like, don't know. Just be there. Ah.

Jason: Yeah,

Bill: I'm hearing a couple of different answers from, from both of you. One, one from you and one from, and, and they're, I I'm distinguishing them a bit. Tell me if I'm right about this, if I'm hearing it accurately. But Jason, I'm hearing that for you this, what's scary is there's a part of you that that wonders if there's any value in staying in the present moment.

Jason: yeah,

Bill: Yeah.

Jason: gets really activated.

Bill: Yes. I wonder if it's time to update that part. Are you open to having that part updated right now?

Jason: Yeah, sure.

Bill: Okay.

Jason: I'm up.

Bill: Well,

Jason: up for anything, man.

Bill: before we, before we go there, let's just see where your self energy is. I have a guess as as to where it is. I'm gonna give you a scale

Jason: Yeah,

Bill: and scale is one to five, and do you know what I mean by self energy? Okay. So one would be that you, you have probably no access to self energy.

Jason: Yeah.

Bill: And five would be one of those peak moments when maybe when you, you're with one of your daughters or your son

Jason: Yeah,

Bill: or, or you know, where you're just really connected

Jason: yeah,

Bill: and, and it's just a, a, uh, it's just an amazing moment that if you tried to duplicate it, you couldn't.

Jason: yeah.

Bill: So that's a five. Where would you put yourself right now?

Jason: Um, I feel pretty grounded. I feel pretty in my body and I also feel I. You know, a part of me that's wants to be performative in this conversation. Um, so I'd say like a a three and a four.

Bill: Okay. All right. Yeah. For me to be between a three and a four is ample self energy to be able to access wisdom and so many of the resources that are available from that self energy. So having said that, having established there's plenty of self energy here. What do you wanna say to this part about the value of being in the present moment?

Jason: Yeah. Um, I would say there is no other moment, like this is where life happens. And, um, yeah, I would say like, it's okay to put down wherever you need to go, wherever you think you want to go. Like you can trust that this is the place to be right now and this is where you wanna be and this is where this person needs you to be. Yeah.

Bill: Do you mind if I go just one more step further with this?

Jason: man. Keep going. Yeah,

Bill: All right. How does the part react to that? Does the part accept that?

Jason: I think it, I think it does. I think it, um, yeah, we, I, I think I've got some trust with this part. Um,

Bill: Yeah. That's so key.

Jason: wants to be, yeah, I, I sense that it like, wants to be skeptical and I'm like, okay with that,

Bill: Yeah.

Jason: allow me to like, really, like, it, can it take a step back and, and give me the space to like. my work. Um, and it's, yeah, I sense it. It can do that.

Bill: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Cool. Uh, yeah, because you've earned that, you've earned that

Jason: Yeah,

Bill: with, with this party trust you enough.

Jason: Yeah.

Bill: And that's what I, when I said that is so key. If we haven't asked, if we haven't earned the trust by, by really getting to know these parts, and then we ask them to step back and stop doing what they're doing, they may agree just because they want to please us or because they, there's another part of us that wants to overpower them.

Jason: Yeah.

Bill: But they're going to, they're gonna keep doing their job. They might have to flank it, they might have to do it a different way, but, but they're gonna keep doing their job. So thanks for going there with me, by the way.

Jason: yeah, no problem. And I'll just, I'll feed off of that, like, something that comes up for me is like, one of the ways I think about my work is like, how can I, how can I help, really help people cultivate a beautiful interior world? Um, and I'm inspired a lot by John O'Donohue and his poetry and his work and like parts work is such beautiful access to that 'cause it's like nothing. I don't need to to fix that part. I don't need to make it go away. I don't need to hate it. Shame like all I need to do is just really get it, acknowledge it can. I just love it and understand it and value it for the what it's trying to do. And just that simple act of loving and valuing and understanding it. There's a natural melting, a natural dissolving, and we can do that all day with all our experience. Like all the places we're feeling stuck, blocked, impeded. We can meet it with understanding and love and acknowledgement and it's such a gift.

Bill: Yeah,

Jason: yeah.

Bill: and it melts and dissolves.

Jason: Yeah,

Bill: you do.

Jason: yeah.

Bill: I love those words.

Jason: Yeah.

Bill: And for you, Marty, it was, I don't know, the scary is, I don't know. You know, you talked about preparing.

Marty: It's, and, and I think it's mixed with, like you mentioned, you were used, the word performative part. Like that. That's the part that I think is the most scared. Like, I don't know what I'm supposed to do here. You know, I'm, I'm supposed to perform. I'm getting paid for this I don't know what,

Bill: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Marty: so yeah, I just, I just wanted to say, I noticed as you were interact, the two of you were just interacting that the whole world got updated.

Bill: Right.

Marty: Right.

Bill: Yes.

Marty: when, when self energy is present, expands

Jason: Yeah,

Marty: and I felt that happen, um, for, for me and probably for our listeners too,

Jason: yeah. It's a beautiful, thanks for the reflection 'cause and I think about when he asked me the question, I just, by bringing my attention to that part, like I close my eyes and when, and, and you, you just drop into a different space.

Marty: mm-hmm.

Jason: that is that energy of our, of who we are.

Bill: Mm-hmm. Oh, that was amazing. Thanks for indulging that.

Marty: I wanna go back. Um, just that because I love it to something and if it's not where the conversation needs to go, we can shift again. But, um, to that moment of mirroring somebody's so, uh, accurately or intensely, or. sure what word to use there beautifully is the word I'd like to use. Honestly. That, um, when you said like, from there anything becomes po, the po what shows up as possibility?

Jason: Hmm.

Marty: And what interests me about that is that I notice that when I'm recreated, I get creative. Like, uh, now I can, I can. You generate something new. Um, and I just wonder, like if is, is that your experience or what evidence do you have for that? Both of you?

Jason: Mm. Yeah, like what I find is like when I am working with someone at the depth of process and really like mirroring and, and following what, what, what's coming up for them in their mind or what they're like, the felt sense in their body. It either goes into two places. Like it either triggers a part

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Jason: we move into like structural work to like meet that part and work with it. Or it drops deeper into, into presence and absence where they can really feel into something deep and profound and beautiful. And then from that place, yeah, that's where. So much possibility creates, and it's a, it's a natural resourced state. So when someone like embodies that, um, felt sense of presence, there's different qualities of presence, right? Whatever that quality is that they can actually embody, like it is literally resourcing them in the moment and they can actually come out of that conversation like from a resource state and not like a lot of times. I think I've myself experienced it and with clients, like they're almost like been through the wringer after a coaching call trying to like mentally figure everything out. And it's like they're drained. I did not resource them in any way whatsoever. And it's like, shit. yeah,

Marty: Yeah.

Jason: I,

Bill: Let's stay with that for a moment. I, I just have a question for you about that. When you say you, you did not resource them, what does that mean?

Jason: yeah. Well, it's like, it's like, um. Lemme just use an example of a client I've been working with for like two years now, and like, and to be, to be really honest, like we, we, he was committed. We're going at it like he was doing his work, but like, he could not create the result. He, it was like basically just like keep coming up against that resistance, that wall

Bill: Yep.

Jason: The, uh, all the things getting in the way of what he wanted. And were working with it. Like, but it, but. At the, the truth was we kept getting sucked back into a change agenda and like looking at context and who he's being and trying to, and it was, it was just so much effort and work. It was actually like sucking the life energy out of him, being in that process. And then as I started to just like literally in the heart of our work, just slowly progress and shift into inviting him in to be with these parts and to slow down and to drop into his body. There was just this like. Complete natural melting and unfolding into like of his inner world. as soon as that softened, like he could actually start to like into some of these things. He wanted to, he could actually, like, he had space to, to hold a belief that we'd, you know, been talking about for years for, but, but now he had space to actually like, do that work with his mind. Um, that's kind of how. Yeah. Yeah. He could actually create himself. He could actually see something differently because there was like a re like a new resourced capacity to do that.

Marty: Yeah. See, I think that this moment, I'm sorry, bill, I just, I part of the reason why this fascinates you, so, 'cause I think this is the moment where we are in the presence of, or we are embodying divinity, like total omni potent that's available. Uh, that's, that's why it fascinates me so much.

Jason: Yeah. I mean, to love a part of us that literally causes havoc or totally disrupts our life, what may, whether it drives us into addiction or crushes relationships, to turn our attention to that and love it unconditionally is, is nothing but what you're pointing to Marty. Yeah.

Bill: Divinity. Yeah. Well, just to put a cap on what I understand now, based on the question that I asked and how you answered when, when I asked, what do you mean by that? What do you mean that you didn't, you left your client unresourced or, or you didn't resource them? That's what you said. Now I understand. That you, you meant what I would've meant, which is that you helped your, you didn't help your client to access the resources that they have built right in.

Jason: Yeah.

Bill: It's not that you were providing resources for them.

Jason: they

Bill: had a responsibility to do that.

Jason: the resourcefulness of their own

Bill: Yes. And your job as coach was to help them to get there.

Jason: Yeah. Like, I even, like, I have a, I have a shitty relationship with the word coach. Um,

Bill: , do you?

Jason: yeah. Like I, I prefer to be like a guide or a partner, um, and not from like a cheesy place. It's like I'm guiding you either like deeper into

Bill: Yeah,

Jason: with yourself. Guiding you, you know, along this journey of, you know,

Bill: yeah,

Jason: of self-mastery, uh, or partnering with you to just really be someone that like truly partner on whatever we're trying to create. And because

Bill: yeah.

Jason: like creates that power gap where there's like something I have that you don't have and

Bill: I see.

Jason: true. Um, and it would, I take that back. It can be true. I actually know coaches who are incredibly powerful and do that work and it makes a difference, but it's just not the way I wanna serve people. I. Um, yeah,

Bill: Got it. I like guide.

Marty: Well, a coach and, and athletics is diff There is a difference there. There are a lot of similarities,

Jason: yeah,

Marty: a difference. Right. That

Jason: yeah. Totally. Yeah. So there's like a, an incredible article I try to find, find a few guys, but it breaks through like these, like four generations of coaching. Um, and the first generation is basically like the traditional athletic coaching model. Um. And then you go to the next, I forget what the second layer generation is, but the third is like ontological, contextual. You're like really moving into something deeper. But then the fourth, author proposes that presence, like a presence centric approach is like that fourth generation of like true partnership that breaks down all of those barriers that are created in those earlier generations. Um, yeah.

Marty: We, I'm, I'm probably lived through those, the first four at least.

Jason: Yeah. And I have a lot of clients that come from, you know, like the achievement high performance world. A they're former athletes, and it's like they, they, they, they have created a perception of me, of like, that's how I am gonna be as their coach. So there's a lot of work in like creating a new relationship for them to actually relate to me differently and something different. Yeah.

Bill: Have you got, you got something to go with next here, Marty? Because I, I, I have one, one thing I wanna go to, but it's not important if you have something.

Marty: go right ahead.

Bill: Okay.

Marty: just, I'll just be in the not knowing the scary, not knowing.

Bill: , by the way, I wanna, I did wanna give you a reflection about that if you're open to it.

Marty: know conversation.

Bill: I, um, sorry to leave you hanging there. Uh, yeah. So, so often when I'm working with my clients, I don't wanna make this about me, but I do wanna just put in a completion to that part of the conversation if I could. Often when I'm working with a client who, who feels overwhelmed by what is being demanded of them, the part of them that's feeling overwhelmed, should feel overwhelmed because it's not old enough to be able to do what you've asked it to do, or that what it thinks it's supposed to be doing. So you're with a coaching client, and I know that you happen to be in your sixties, even though you only look like you're in your forties, you're in your sixties. You've been, you've had a lot of life's experience. You're in your seventh decade, and, uh, my guess would be that you would discover that this is a very young part of you that doesn't know how to be in the sixties, but is trying very hard to,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: that's, that's the reflection I have for you and, and it would be great to explore and find out at some point because if the part gets the update that there's actually a 60 plus year old man. That's got lots of life experiences that's very capable of coaching people and has done so successfully for 25 plus years.

Marty: Yeah,

Bill: part might relax and decide to go play instead.

Marty: well I think that's happened many times. Maybe there's, maybe there's a, a. Maybe I, I, it, we need to find something other than just going out to play like a permanent,

Bill: sure.

Marty: permanent place for it to be deployed other than, you know, either, you know, worrying about whether I'm prepared for a performance or just playing. Like maybe there's some place where that park could, could, um, find a home forever.

Bill: And it, it would know once it, once it relaxes and realizes, oh, I don't have to do this anymore. It'll know what it wants to do and there may be a very useful thing that it wants to do to be, to help you in your adult life, like be playful in your coaching sessions.

Marty: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right, right. Yeah. Um. I, I will reflect on that because I, you know, like I say, I, we've had that part and I have been to this place many times. And then, you know, he goes out to play, he comes back. So

Bill: I see.

Marty: I've gotta find that more, enduring, sustained, uh, place for him.

Bill: Yeah. Yeah, it's happening over there, Jason.

Jason: I, there's a, you said the word performance, Marty, when you were talking and it like created this big idea in my head, which is like. That's, that's the nature of like, and I'm gonna speak to my experience, but also generalize for like men. Like in what I see with a lot of men, it's like performance is like the only thing we've learned how to do and be in the world is to like perform and always be on. And I, I think like there's so many ways of coaching that I'm performing as coach and client's performing for me and we're just staying in the same damn game, whereas like. When a, when we can actually drop in and tap into what it feels like to just be me right now and to let that be okay, whatever is arising, whatever fucked up thought, whatever feeling we can't make sense of. like the only time. So I, I, I really believe sometimes for clients, it's like the only time in their life they've ever dropped that performance part and just like actually experienced in that moment what it was like to be them. Um,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Jason: so yeah, I don't know. And, and, and I think like. We definitely don't have to go in this direction, but I'm having like a radical, uh, experience like in my sexuality that is making that really obvious into like how that performative nature has destroyed something that is incredibly beautiful, uh, for most of my life.

Bill: Yes, please. Let's go in that direction. We've got about 10. We've got about 10 minutes left here. So with that in mind, can we, yeah, let's open up that and, and look at it.

Jason: Yeah. Do you want me to just dive in or do you have a

Bill: Please do. No, no,

Jason: so

Bill: please do.

Jason: I've, um, I've also dabbled a lot in like, structures of my processes, psychedelics, play medicine, breath, and all. A lot of these have brought me deeper into my body and with them have been restrictions around, you know, dieting and sexual activity. it's, it's happened a few times over the last years, but this last, uh, encounter over the last month. I, I couldn't have sex, but I was like, I'm gonna be with my wife and not orgasm. And I, I found it to be the most erotic, intimate, passionate, beautiful sexual experiences I've I've ever had in my life. And, and, and like nothing changed, all I did was actually not let the excitement of the outcome drive me to like end it. Be like, enforce that. Instead, I just relaxed into this like intense energy in my body. Stayed with it and moved through it. And then I started to find that like, holy shit, every day. I was like, not only like insanely connected and intimate and, desiring my wife in a way I never have. Um. But I was also like, filled with this like insane creative energy to like, just bring it into my work. And like I, I was not tired. I was lit up. And it's, it's like a big experiment for me this year. Like, how much can I embodied in that sexual energy and not make sex about a performance, um, about something I need to do, about something I need to do for myself or for, for my wife? Can I really just like, and yeah. And the outcome of that was just like. Such a depth of presence and an aliveness in like in my whole body. Um, so yeah, it's, and I just see that as like such a metaphor for like, I don't know everything we're doing in life. Yeah.

Marty: Say more about that. I, I like that too. Um, because what, what got us here was my, um, performative part in this conversation, so

Jason: I think there's like, um.

Marty: I.

Jason: So the nature of sex, sex is like, there's an intensity to that energy, obviously, but we could bring that same intensity to a coaching conversation, uh, to being with someone at the grocery store to bumping into someone down the road. can we actually feel what it feels like to be in contact with that person right now? Um, and it's, it, it, it certainly most likely won't have the intensity of. Of a, a sexual engagement, but like it, it could be pretty damn close if we allow it to be. And, and actually I would even argue we could, if we're paying attention, we can really like transmute and channel that sexual energy into all of these other endeavors that we're taking on into people in our lives. Yeah.

Marty: I, we might, I, it might even, we have to take the, we might have to take the word sexual out of it just to get into it. Sometimes,

Jason: Yeah.

Marty: I've had, I've had. That sort of experience in conversation with, you know, somebody, there was no but it felt really almost as if, uh,

Jason: Yeah.

Marty: I was having, I've had that experience. Um, cooking dinner, you know, just like being so. Uh, intimate with what I was doing, the smells and, and the coordination and the timing and the taste and all of that, and walk in the woods can be like that. I mean, you know, so I, I think that, and, and now I saying that, now I can say, yeah, well that was like sex. This is a sexual experience with life. think sometimes when we, you know, talk about it, like in my men's group, we'd say, well. It's, uh, sexual experience well then that

Jason: Yeah.

Marty: so hard to get into it when you think of it that way,

Jason: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I get, I, I think it's just, it's the same thing. It's like the cooking of a meal. It's like you're not sitting there worried about how the meal's gonna come out or if it's gonna taste good for somebody. Um, and you're not thinking about when it's gonna be over for. You're getting too excited. You're literally just like immersed in cooking the damn food and and being there, and that's beautiful. Yeah.

Marty: It could go on forever. Yeah.

Jason: And apparently sex can too, is what I'm finding out.

Marty: Right, right. Exactly right. Yeah. Um, just on another, another note, you know, there are certain schools of thought that I've heard this from different, very different directions that encourage men to save that.

Jason: Hmm.

Marty: The orgasm so that the energy gets into the whole system and you experience more of like what you've been describing, uh, the, the sustained creative, you know, place.

Jason: Yeah, I mean that's like, uh, yeah, I think I have a bunch of intentions, but there's definitely, and I'm familiar with that idea, which is like, yeah, can we channel that life force energy our creativity and basically like enhance our consciousness? It's a, a tool to like deepen our consciousness. Uh, for me, I'm actually like, it's, it's more of a commitment to like, how much more can I deepen and pour love into my wife from that energy? Like, instead of like just using the metaphorical terms, the the orgasm of energy, like going out and being depleted and being gone for a period of time, can I keep that energy flowing and just continuing to pour into it, be of service and it's like. know, I was doing things like I'd, I'd, I'm, I'm not even drinking coffee right now, but I'd wake up and make her coffee out of like an act, like a real genuine act of love and intimacy, where in the past it might've been, I've just been like, all right, I'm good. Like, I'm just gonna go do my thing. Um, but there's just more of that energy, like pouring love towards her.

Bill: Mm-hmm. Generosity, love, generous love. And I'm hearing a tie in with what you're talking about right now with what you were talking about earlier when we were talking about parts, and that's the. The change agenda is very similar here, right? The, I, I think the, the absence of the agenda to have an orgasm and get this sex thing over with so that I can go to sleep that, or, or get the meal eaten so we can clean up and be done. Uh, any of that takes away from all the way back to the very beginning of this conversation presence. Just being here with what's going on right now without an agenda present. And, and, and of course that's applied to parts work too. If I go in to support a client who has come to me as a coach because they wanna make changes in their lives and I hold that agenda tightly and, and make sure that everything that we're talking about and every moment that we spend talking is in the di is in the service of achieving that result, then there's no way to achieve it. Because we're, I'm holding it way too tightly. The agenda's, the agenda's there, it's gotta be there really in, in, uh, a coaching, uh, relationship. However, the irony of it, the paradox of it, is that if we, if we hold it too tightly, if we don't suspend the agenda of change, we'll never get there.

Jason: Yeah. I, I love that Bill. Yeah. I, I, I like to say take the, take the goal or the direction we're moving very seriously and hold it very lightly so we can

Bill: Yes.

Jason: work right now. Um, yeah. Yeah.

Bill: And then just notice where are we on the journey. If I'm traveling from, in my area, a good way to measure this on I 90 is Spokane to, to Seattle, takes about four hours. And, uh, there are mile markers along the way that, you know, an hour down the road I'm gonna be in Ritzville from Spokane, and, and two hours, two and a half hours down the road I'll be in Moses Lake and so on and so forth. So. If, if in that coaching relationship I am with a client and we do just Exactly. I love how you said that, take this seriously, but hold it loosely. Then every once in a while, once we have some insight, we, so we have some awareness once we have some expansions, some melting, some dissolving, some unfolding, some softening and some spaciousness. Those are your words I wrote down. I love them all. Then we can check and look at where's the mile marker now, where are we?

Jason: Yeah.

Bill: How we.

Marty: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jason: Yeah, and like I, I hold, like inside of that container with that serious goal that's held lightly, there's like our capacity to create a daily intention that moves us in that direction.

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Jason: our ability to, to review how that day went, to actually notice like, hey, what parts got triggered? What, what internally is actually getting in the way of me the step appropriate steps to bring that thing to life. And that, and then I'm like, cool. The more you find those internal impediments, that's beautiful work. 'cause I can help you with that. I can, we can work with that. And that's the gold. It's not bad, it's not wrong. It's, it's exactly what we want.

Marty: Exactly what, yeah,

Jason: Yeah.

Marty: Yeah, it's the, well, think, trying to think of an analogy, but what I wanna say is really, is that that's the stuff of to yourself.

Jason: Yeah.

Bill: Now there's one major problem with this whole approach, that approach being let's be present. And let's just really sink as deeply into that as we possible. It's that time flies by. Guess what time it is,

Jason: Hmm.

Marty: of which,

Bill: right?

Marty: do, how do people get in touch with you, Jason?

Jason: Yeah, B-L-Y-D-E-L-L, and my email is just jason bled@gmail.com and my email is just Jason

Bill: Anything else that you want our listener to know? Anything you'd like to leave us and our listeners with?

Jason: Just an invitation to, be a warrior for the human spirit. Like the world needs more warriors right now, so if there's something you feel challenged by or called towards to let it actually propel you into being a warrior for the human spirit.

Marty: Awesome.

Bill: it. Oh, so great to meet you.

Jason: Yeah,

Bill: I hope that we get to connect again in the future. This has been fabulous.

Jason: Likewise. Thanks, bill. Thanks Marty. Appreciate you guys.

Bill: Thank you.