Jae Geller

Bill: Welcome to the True You Podcast. My name's Bill Tierney. I am a compassionate results coach and my co-host, Dr. Martin Kettelhut, who I call Marty. A lot of people call Marty, uh, some people call Doc. We're not gonna say that out loud or else the cattle hear it. And we have a special guest today. Uh, Jae. Jae Geller. Is it Gellar or Geller?

Jae: Geller.

Bill: Geller, I'm sorry, I should have asked that before I hit record. Welcome, I'm, I'm very happy to meet you and looking forward to getting to know you a little bit today. On today's, uh, episode.

Jae: Well, I am so grateful for your amazing podcast. I think I've listened to everyone. Is this the third name iteration?

Bill: It is, we started out with, uh, the not so typical leadership coaching podcast. And both of us didn't have mouths big enough to hold all of that. So we changed it to the leadership coaching podcast. And then after, I wanna say 70 some episodes, um, I changed my other mind and thought, well let's, let's, and I talked to Marty about this. Let's call it something that's more related to the work, uh, that we're both doing, uh, with all of our clients, which is to help them become re rediscover, re recover, reclaim, and live into their true, authentic selves. So this is the third one, third episode, or third, uh, rendition. Oh, thank you.

Marty: That's great. Awesome. welcome.

Bill: Marty, what were you gonna say?

Marty: That the, the first iteration of the podcast, kind of led us to, you know, a. Um, the, the next one, not your typical coaching led to the true you

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: very nice way. It's like we were both on ready for the next, you know, what's the, the next level of this conversation or the next, you know, deeper take on what we're talking about.

Bill: Yeah. Let me read, uh, Jae's bio. And, and then we're gonna get in some conversation here. Jae Geller is an IFS Informed Learning collaborator. Remind me to talk about what informed means, and let's see if we're, if we, if what I think it means means what you meant it to say. This will be her fourth year as a student participant in the free online course. Ulab. That's U dash Lab. Leading from the emerging future, and she would like to be, she, she'd like to let listeners know about this amazing program and community from the U School U Dash School, which is a part of the Presencing Institute. So we've got the emerging future, we've got Presencing Institute, U Lab, and U School. She'll be hosting a group called a Hub on the Youth School Community Platform to explore combining, combining IFS. And for listeners that are just tuning in and don't know what IFS is Internal Family Systems and UL Ulab for self-led leadership and would like to invite listeners to join that hub if they are interested. And do I understand, Jae, that that is really free?

Jae: So if I may, I'll just tell everybody a little bit about this course,

Bill: Yeah.

Jae: I am a student of, so I do not represent them. Ulab is a. Free online course. The Ulab is the course, and it's on the MI TX platform, so the MITX learning platform and it's videos and some readings. And it's, it's like one of those, you know, Coursera, EDX or MITX, and so you can follow along. It's completely self-paced that is available. Again, I'm a student, so don't quote me. You can look at their website, but it starts September 11th, and then I think they continue that availability to do the course and finish the course content. It is designed for eight weeks and it's sort of live with community for eight weeks and then you can continue it until either March or May. I think it was one of those M months. Um, so you have a long time to actually continue it or go back over it. Um, and that is that kind of an, uh, M-O-O-C-I always forget what that exactly stands for, and then I make stuff up. But a massively open something I'm missing an o online, massive open online course, I think is what MOOC stands for. So that is the program, and I can talk about what, what that covers It's a little confusing because that's on the MITX learning site. It is put on by the U School, so the course is put on by the U School, which is part of the Presencing Institute, which is out of MIT in Cambridge, Massachusetts. So it all gets a little confusing, and they all have, uh, there's a separate website for MITX. There's a separate website for U School, and anybody listening can plug in ULAB 2025 into their search engine, and the course should come up. And then you can join the course on the MITX platform. There's also this amazing global community. Where you can do practices, the practices that are part of it, and you can also message people. There are coaching circles, which are small groups, usually up to six people that can meet to do the practices together online. All online. And then there are also interest based groups or language based groups, or location based groups, but those are called hubs. And um, so this year, uh, I will be hosting and co-leading a hub. Looking at a project of combining IFS, internal family systems all of the Uli.

Bill: Okay. That's a bunch. That's a bunch of information. So let me, let me break it down a little bit.

Marty: Actually, may I make a suggestion

Bill: Sure.

Marty: that we break it down again at the end once people have an idea what it's about?

Bill: Well, yes, but I do have a very important question to ask First. I heard you say that the course starts tomorrow, today's September 10th.

Jae: September 11th, 2025, and it's all self-paced.

Bill: So this, this, uh, episode won't be released probably until maybe as early as the 18th, maybe not till the 25th. So somebody can sign up for a course that starts on the 11th and self-pace and gets started from unit one. Right. Okay. Good.

Jae: People trickle in.

Bill: And I didn't hear an answer to my question, um, and that, that question was, and it's free.

Jae: And it is free.

Bill: Okay, good. That's really important.

Jae: I think you, you can get a certificate and you can pay for the certificate of completion,

Bill: Yeah.

Jae: mo

Bill: Amazing.

Jae: absolutely free.

Bill: Okay. So those are the most push pressing questions that were on my mind. And yes, I'm much very happy to just summarize at the end. So having, having established that, let's go ahead and jump in. Marty, you, do you have some ideas of where to go now?

Marty: Well, I, I think our listeners would, you know, their whistle has been wet. So what, what is a ulab about? What is a ulab like? Where, what is u theory? Give us a little here.

Jae: Super. I had Anch You were gonna ask that so

Marty: invited you so that we could ask it.

Jae: Exactly. So. IFSI think all of your listeners are probably familiar. I think of it as, and I know you had said you wanted to know what I meant by I-S-F-I-F-F informed

Bill: Yes, I do.

Jae: I've done the online circle,

Bill: Got it.

Jae: I'm not a coach and I'm not a therapist, so I'm not doing level one. Um, I'm so, but I've done the online circle, so I'm. IFS informed,

Bill: Got it.

Jae: um, and I practice it with learning collaboration,

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Jae: uh, because there's a, there's a whole movement for that also for, you know, in education and learning. I think of the IFS has having a model that's basically, that there are parts and self. And then having practices sort of the ones that popped to mind were the practices of unblending from your parts and the practice of unburdening the wounds and painful things that the parts carry.

Marty: Yeah.

Jae: Now, for the Ulab, there is a model, and that model is called Theory U. Anybody can look it up. It's on, um, even. Um, so you can look that up. And, um, I don't think, yeah, I kind of have a picture of it. but that is the model and I can, and then there are also practices, so if I can quick by sort of the model, if that would be helpful.

Marty: I think it would, yes.

Jae: Okay, it's a U. If you can imagine if you're listening, if you imagine it's a U, it's yellow and there's sort of an arrow the upside of the U. It goes from left to right down and then up and starting. On the left is coating. So coating would be finding common intent. Then coming down the.

Marty: Let me just, um, I'm, I'm gonna interrupt just for a second because that's a profoundly different way of beginning than a lot of. Theories or methods co initiating it, coming together on intentions we agree on first. Imagine if Congress did that right. So and I know that one of the things that you said, um, before we got together today is that a question that, that you're interested in is why, what does it mean to collaboratively lead from the true you? So I think this is, I just wanna underscore this profound difference in many, from many approaches and let you keep going.

Jae: Thank you for that. Wow. I wanna get some advice from you because you have the whole philosophical and philosophy research background. And so if, if I can remember at the end to get some advice about, uh, how we kind of. Uh, showcase what we are learning and, uh, kind of have, have products kind of,

Marty: Yeah.

Jae: and I'll bookmark that because we started with coating.

Marty: Okay.

Jae: we move on to sensing, and sensing is observe. And I have notes since the system from the whole, and these are all direct quotes that I took from the the U lab. Site. So I'm not making any of this up. And if I get it wrong, it's me, jumbling it, check the site for the, the true.

Marty: could say, since we've taken that break to say that, that the who does come from is a man named Otto Schwar.

Jae: thank you. Thank you. This comes from c and he has a, a recent book out that I just think is wonderful. It's called Presencing and we're gonna get to that next after sensing, and that's where the presencing And so I'll move from. So we talked about, sensing, which is observe and sense the system from the hole. And then presencing the key thing. Oh, here's a little U. You can't, well, listeners sure can't see it, that's for sure. At the bottom of the U, there's like a little white circle of this bottom of this sort of yellow U,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Jae: and that is presencing and presencing, like this book, which is Sharma and. probably pronouncing her name wrong, but, um, fer or coffer. Um, uh, and it's presencing seven practices for transforming self Society and Business. Um, so presencing, they describe it as connecting to the source of inspiration and, uh. I think I wrote down, oh, sensing, um, connecting to the source of inspiration, motivation and will. And so that sort of the, the, the presencing part,

Marty: Uh huh.

Jae: that's where Presencing Institute comes from. Um. Then, and of course Ulab and U School. Has anybody figured out where that comes from yet? Um, then coming up is co-creating and that's, uh, prototype the new and explore the future by doing iterative and by iterating and sharing learning.

Bill: I am wondering, can I jump in?

Jae: Yeah.

Bill: So this is feels like high level bullet point that doesn't have any roots to it and I'm wondering if we can build some context and experience around it so that there's some meaning for the listener and 'cause many of these concepts sound really, really interesting. But I'd really like to know the story behind it and maybe some examples of it. And since you're a student of this course, I'm wondering if you can slow it down and give, tell us what it was like for you to go through each one of these levels and learn and experience that.

Jae: Absolutely. Yeah. There's one last level which is evolving, so kind of instituting whatever your, you know, whatever you come up with. Um, and there are also practices. So, uh, so that's, that's sort of a snapshot of the model and, and I love jumping in and I can give you some examples. Um, some of the different practices are at each level. the first level that we talked about, which was co some of the practices are really around deep listening and some listening practices for deep listening. Um. And then also practices around. And then with the sensing, there's more deep listening and also generative dialogue and practices for what generative dialogue is. there are these coaching circles where you have the opportunity to practice that. Um,

Bill: Jae, can I ask you some, do, do you mind if I ask you some questions about, about how you got involved in this, how you discovered it and what, what your motivation for doing it is?

Marty: And who does it in general too, you know? Is this for couples or corporations or townships?

Jae: Yes. Townships, yes, corporations. There's a lot of people from the un. very, very global. um, so my coaching circle from last year, um, there are, um, we're all women, um, and from. Uh, the Netherlands, um, Ireland, and two from South Africa. And then I'm from the United States, the Pacific Northwest. So

Marty: you're a group. Uh, what brings you together besides doing this work?

Jae: it's all people who wanna learn and are interested and everybody has their own. Projects and experience. I was in a, um, hub last year around regenerative education and there was somebody who does, I'm gonna get this wrong, but, um, EDUC he's in, he was running the program for the UN for educating women. Um, so are all kinds of different organizations all around the globe are. Doing this, uh, healthcare systems, businesses, healthcare systems, businesses, education, governance. Uh, I'm missing, I wanna say that there were like six different sort of topic areas,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Jae: um, and lots of group. There are businesses that are very involved, and I'm blanking on the name of them.

Marty: That's great. That no, that helped a lot. You, you, just so we got a sense of the breadth of its usage. Um, you can go back to Bill's question. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to, uh, redirect.

Bill: thank you. I, I really would like to have this drop down into the heart and into the personal and, and so far, I gotta tell you, I. Oh, this sounds very interesting, but, but I'm having trouble sinking my teeth into it. I'd like to know your experience. What would, what drew you to it? How, how did you find out about it? What attracted you to it and what was your experience?

Jae: To a lot of, um, learning, collaboration and things for

Bill: I.

Jae: dropping it down very personal. Is, how can I use, so there are these practices and there are these processes and there are these, um, other things and can I use them in my life? And for me, since I also practice IFS, how can I, uh, how can I practice using the sort of the journey of the you for problem solving and for creating, um, things I was. Uh, developing. So I do learning, collaboration and have been developing a math program, understanding advanced math. So I had done adult education, but also, uh, younger kids. I'm actually also a retired family physician and I had done school medicine, so I'm very involved with, neuro. Atypical and the learning disability community, I don't like those terms, but I don't have something better to quickly express it. Um, and so this journey, so for education, you know, using IFS and education is wonderful, being self-led and speaking. For my parts rather than from my parts. Um, and also having kind of a process that I can do when I'm trying to develop a program or prepare something. Um,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Jae: it's, it's the, it's the sort of a process, I guess is the right word,

Bill: Yeah.

Jae: which is very helpful and also can be used individually. So the. A lot of these. And then for me personally, I use these processes and practices with my parts. So, you know, it's like, okay, we've got a bunch of parts here. Let's co initiate, all, let's all co initiate.

Bill: So now all,

Marty: That's fascinating that that's the first. You're the first guest we've had that spoke that way. That's great

Bill: what are you noticing, Marty? What? What are you pointing out? Spoke in what way?

Marty: to talk to all the parts and let's all get

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: initiate. That's brilliant.

Bill: And the, and the other thing that I heard in what you shared just now is so, so often, uh, and Jae, you, you may not know much about me yet, uh, but I am a coach and for years.

Jae: Practice group.

Bill: Oh, okay. Great.

Jae: gratitude. So much gratitude. You're

Bill: For the parts, the parts work practice group. Yeah.

Jae: It's awesome.

Bill: Oh, thank you. So as a coach, uh, so in parts work practice, you see me supporting people and just learning how to use the model. But as a coach with my coaching clients, I show people how to use the model as a secondary, um, I guess strategy to support helping them to achieve what they wanna achieve. To accomplish what they wanna accomplish, to problem solve, to make changes, whatever they wanna achieve. But, but, but that's what's unique about coaching to the IFS model. Most of us that are trained in the IFS model are there to help people heal, heal their past. Thank you very much. But as a coach, heal your past. So what, so that what, and what I heard you just say now is how do we use IFS to problem solve? And now you've really got my attention. So tell me more.

Jae: I, I am, I am just pausing I have parts that are just so excited with both of your expertise, with, with your coaching, with your group development, with the practice group that you developed. Uh. trying to join these two models together. And it, it works both ways. So there's using ulab with the parts there's also doing ulab large groups or with nonprofits or with my job or with government, or, not that I work for the government or a business, but, but you know, using, with ones. Career or whatever in life. Um, or even problem solving with any group of people. and so combining the two together is really, really powerful for me personally,

Bill: I will bet.

Jae: I wanna share it.

Bill: Yeah.

Jae: wanna really explore it more and find out from. In other areas how I can learn from them.

Bill: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jae: you have any advice about that kind of thing, that would be fabulous.

Bill: Well, lemme just say that as you're sharing this, I'm thinking of Brenda Terhar and Rochelle Miller and, uh, Sarah Seaverson. All three of them are trained in the IFS model. Uh, Rochelle and Brenda are IFS therapist and uh, Sarah is like me. She's an IFS practitioner. And, uh, they are, they just completed, I believe they've completed it now, or they're, it's an ongoing, they've begun training the Spokane Washington School District in the IFS model. And from what I'm hearing from. Yeah, from what I'm hearing from Rochelle is that it's just such a, a, a powerful experience from her perspective as a therapist and as a trainer and as a mother of children in another skill school district that is so. Dysfunctional and broken that she's just excited over the, over the moon, excited that a school district would take this on because it, it really challenges everybody that participates to show up vulnerably, transparently, honestly. And, and with full responsibility rather than, uh, blaming and, and distracting and. Poli politicizing the experience. She's, she says it's just wonderful. And I'm imagining that what you're talking about combining IFS with another set of processes that facilitates a conversation like this would be extremely powerful.

Jae: I find it beyond extremely. Yes, exactly. And. why I really want to make the IFS community aware of ulab. And then also on the Ulab site, we are trying to invite people to learn about IFS.

Bill: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jae: coming at it from both directions.

Bill: If you haven't already done so, be sure you invite all those people at ULAB to come check us out at Pars Work Practice another free support service for learning about IFS.

Jae: Oh, thank you. I will, I will very much. We haven't started yet for,

Bill: Yeah.

Jae: or anything, and I am so grateful for that because that would be absolutely fantastic. Thank you for that invitation.

Bill: Absolutely. Yeah.

Jae: It's also very, both models are very sort of psychosocial, philosophical, spiritual. So I would also some advice, although Bill, if you think of anything more, jump in and please email me afterwards if you think of anything.

Bill: Okay, sure will.

Jae: take notes of what you were saying or, or ask you to put it in the chat and then I realized I can listen to the recording of this.

Bill: Yes, you can. Uhhuh.

Jae: I can also get email connections.

Bill: Yeah.

Jae: As we're doing this project, which is partly a research project of how do we combine IFS and Ulab, I have a science background. I'm used to science studies and articles. Marty, do you have any advice sort of the philosophical way of thinking about. Learning and doing projects for something like specifically this.

Marty: Um, I don't, not, not that it's too broad. I don't, I don't know how to respond to that.

Jae: Okay.

Marty: Um, but let me say this, that I think is relevant. what happened in this conversation so far is typical. Um, of that dynamic like Bill was like, personalize this. Let's, let's bring this down to something concrete specific. I think that, like I have found in my writing, newsletter for example, like if, if I'm, if I'm up in the conceptual realm for too long, I lose people. And, and so like, you know, that that's, that's a dynamic between. Probably in every human being's head between the philosophical part of us, right? And the utilitarian or pragmatic or, you know, that gets things done, handles stuff, in the real world. And so that there's gotta be an. You know, we would be nowhere without philosophy in our businesses, and we'd be nowhere in our businesses without philosophy. It goes both ways. So they just need to pay attention to each other's needs. They're like parts, right? They, and, and so that much I'm very well aware of, and I, and I wrestle with that every day. So that much, I'll say in advance of having a better understanding what, what you're, what you're asking.

Bill: I,

Jae: that's so inter, oh, sorry. Am I interrupting?

Bill: I, well, I was probably get interrupting you, but I'll go ahead and finish my thoughts so I can hear the rest of what you have to say. I think what Marty just did was provided you with some really powerful advice. Similar to some, uh, acknowledgement that I gave Marty earlier today. Marty sent out an email, uh, similar to an email he'd been sending out, telling about a program that he's starting, but this was the first email where I saw him tell a story and that story got me engaged. Like the other emails did not, and I acknowledged him for that. What I'm hearing from Marty is that he's noticing that this conversation evolved when I asked for it to get down to some, some context to get personal and, and suddenly now I'm engaged as you're, as you're doing that, as you're telling me about your own experience and, and, and the things that are happening. And then, and so if the advice you're looking for is. How, how to present this, this content and this material and engage people. I think that's a key. People love stories and they love to be, to be able to listen to that story and relate to it and know how to practically apply what it is that you're teaching.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Jae: Absolutely. Absolutely. And having it on the level of the practices, uh, when people already know you have, I also noticed, I was noticing. Marty, what you were talking about is also very resonant with the whole sensing piece. So sort of of from the sensing the system, know, being able to sort of sense the system from the whole, so from the whole sensing back to core of the system or, and again, that resonates. And on a very personal part of my issue when I was doing this before was I was like, deep listening. What's that? Then with the IFS, it's like, oh, it's listening from self. I know what that feels like.

Marty: There you

Jae: I know what that looks like. I couldn't grasp, but this is my fourth year doing that. I did it. I've done it for three years. I'm very active participating. There's been a, always a sort of a spring semester program and I've done that with other things, and it was when I was combining the IFS and the Ulab. It's like deep listening. Listen from self. I know what that feels like.

Marty: That's beautiful. I mean that's, and there's a philosophical question behind there about, you know, there's a Phil, there's this philosophical point of view that there is no self, there's just all these. that that's what the universe is made outta. So there's a philosophical presupposition here that there is some self in for us to get in touch with, let's say as a corporate team before we start a project so that you see how the two relate intimately. But we usually just focus on one side of that or the other.

Jae: Stop and spend some time really thinking about this. And while we're talking is not the.

Bill: Well, I don't know. I think it's a, I think it's the perfect time to talk about it. I, and, and we can think about it, of course, but Marty, your example that you just gave, so you're in a corporate setting.

Marty: I'm jumping on your example. Go ahead. Go ahead. Yes. Mm-hmm.

Bill: Okay.

Marty: Yes.

Bill: But I love the example, there's a corporate setting and what, but what I heard you just say, and I won't be able to repeat it exactly, but something to do with a common self.

Marty: Yes.

Bill: setting. So say more, gimme a a really, especially for, for those that maybe are new to IFS that are, are foggy on the idea of self or maybe even skeptical about the idea of self.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: that look like in a corporate setting? Gimme like a, a hard example of it.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Just make it up.

Marty: No, no, no. I don't have to make it up. Um, I'm working with a team at, at, um, an advisory, a financial wealth management firm is what they call them nowadays. And, um, uh, and before we started working together, they it, that they were, they, you know. in ops. I do ops, and you know, I give my results and, and that's the, and then I go home and, and I'm in sales. That's what I do. I sail, I, I do sales, thank goodness there's an ops team blah, and down down the, each department and each person. And I'm working through the the Traction book by Gino Wickman, the entrepreneurial operating system with them, and it's dawning on them that they are a self with a role in common, and then now they're deriving their own goals. From common goal that they, it took us three weeks to find together what that common goal is. And now everything that they do contributes to that instead of, uh, just, it's like each wheel on the car was running in a different direction and now they're all going in the same direction.

Bill: When you use the word self here, what I'm hearing it mean is they are all parts of the whole,

Marty: That's right.

Bill: and so the way you're using this self equals the whole.

Marty: No,

Bill: Oh.

Marty: no, the self is it, it's like, um, the old saying, you know, some of the parts is not the whole,

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: right? So

Bill: good.

Marty: something else. There's a different entity. That that exists. That's real. That is not just adding up all the parts. It's, I mean, I, the best examples of this are in the natural world. You know, if you just analyzed a cubic of soil, all the chemicals and all the animals that are in there, and then you went out and bought all those things and put 'em in a cubic container, you would not have soil. Because there's something else that all of those ingredients become over time that is not just a list of the ingredients

Bill: Greater than the sum of the parts, which is the name of.

Marty: or it could be less, it could be a drag on all of us that we haven't come together as oneself.

Bill: But in the example of the natural dirt that is, it's greater than the sum of the parts. 'cause if you put the sum of the parts together, it, it's not dirt is what I heard.

Marty: That's right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jae: For me, I had been referring to that, sort of, that sort of soul self. Um, that, that's greater than the sum of the parts.

Marty: Exactly.

Jae: since there's this new podcast called The True You Podcast, and so some people get very upset with the term soul. And so, um, how about the True You and the True You company and, you know, the True US Company?

Marty: Yes.

Jae: for me just to. The small S self, which is sort of my body unit and my, my unit. anyway, just.

Marty: No, that's, that's right on. Exactly. Um, uh, and then you could do that sort of analysis of the holes and the parts with your bo your body itself too. Right. The, the, the way it all comes together and what. The body is exceeds the, you know, like a list of the organs and tissues and, and elements that make it up

Bill: Oh yeah.

Marty: bigger, right? But, but, and, but, but going back to your word soul, which I love, right? This, this team at this financial firm, they're recognizing now the soul of their organization, right? That they didn't realize it had before it, right? It was just a bunch of loose parts now it has a soul.

Bill: This goes back to, I think, the first point that. You were making Jae about the process of the Ulab. Tell me again, what's that very first stage or phase?

Jae: The first stage is coating.

Bill: Okay, so in traction, Gino Wickman talks about whoever is the ultimate leader, CEO President, owner of the company or corporation or organization generates a vision and then shares it with this entire team. Correct Marty?

Marty: right. Yep.

Bill: And if, and if he enrolls or she enrolls the, the rest of the company or leadership team in this vision, then they, they begin to buy in or bulk, uh, and modify this vision until they all come into agreement about this is who we are,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: this is what we're doing here, and this is what we're about. This is what we're talking about right now. Isn't it

Marty: Exactly.

Bill: an an agreement? A co Say it again, Jae Co.

Jae: So initiating,

Bill: Yeah.

Jae: and it's very different from what you are talking about in that. The, the coating more common intent about the, the problem I would say,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Jae: the issue.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Jae: so, so you don't, you don't have any kind of solution. Until it's, it's not like somebody has a vision and is trying to get everybody on board. very collaborative and it's a journey. It's very much a journey. there are some wonderful practices, which I haven't even talked about. They have this thing called social presence in theater. and there are practices, uh, like one of them is 3D modeling where you, and this, this is part of the sensing. Part of the sensing coming down before the presencing. uh, there are also, uh, stakeholder interviews. There are, but the 3D modeling practice is when you take objects and a flat surface you position all of the objects on the surface so that it represents the system as it is. And then you do a guided inquiry where you look at it from four different directions and in each different direction you're focusing on a different aspect of the situation. Then after that, you, you all sort of can, you know, think about it or journal and then just intuitively if it's done in a group or if you're doing it yourself, um, you start moving the pieces around and just, just kind of use your body. So you're, you're not in your thinking part of your brain, you're just moving the pieces around. And then at the end you look at where the pieces that represented all of the different stakeholders and issues and things, where they're located and how they are in re relationship to each other.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Jae: And that's one practice called 3D modeling. And I probably didn't explain it that well, but hopefully you get the idea.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: Yeah, you bet.

Jae: there's a very powerful practice for the presencing. Which is a guided inquiry with a series of questions, and you can, you can just look up the practice without even doing the course if you want. Um, and it's called, um, stepping into the field of the Future. And so if you look at Presencing Institute stepping into the field of the future, and it's an, it's an inquiry then you also do, um. It's, it's a inquiry, but you kind of picture where it's at now and then picture sort of what you see for the future, and then you like physically step into it and then you take another look to see sort of what happens next, is the best way I can explain it. But,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Jae: uh, and it's all very, like IFS, it's extremely experiential. And so me being on talking about it is hard to express and why the community so important and the community can continue long after the course ends. So I still am involved with somebody from clinic from, uh, my first or second year, no, yeah, my first or second year doing it. And

Bill: Hi.

Jae: they're in India. Um,

Marty: It sounds like it. I definitely hear your enthusiasm for this work and for the, the interaction between, you theory and, um, IFS. And so getting back to, um, Bill's earlier question, I'm curious what it, what it is about these. That models, as you call them, that strikes a particular chord in you. I could just see you resonating there. What is it? Why?

Jae: For anybody who's watching. I stand, I move around. I'm extremely kinesthetic. If you're listening to me, you do not realize that I am constantly moving. Um, and so with both of these, being able to use my body tap into the more creative side of the brain,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Jae: it. It again synergistically, uh, some of the ulab processes helped my parts to kind of relax and work together.

Marty: Uh.

Jae: also, IFS helps me work on projects kind of using some of the trajectory of, of the you process. For working on projects, I'm involved in a.

Marty: think that's really important to underscore, I mean. Uh, to know that the deployment of these models is gonna mean that you get to spend more time in the creative part of you, Not just shuffling papers around or. Following directions, but you the like going down and then back up the u, it's going to allow you to tap into parts of yourself that you're not used to hearing from. It's gonna allow you to, um, reshuffle the ideas that you have. There's a lot of, um, and I think I'm saying that's what is, resin resonates so strongly about these models and you would you agree?

Jae: Thank you. Thank you. Yes. That's very much how I see it all and why I am so excited about it

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Jae: and so curious

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Jae: uh, and really eager to connect other people

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Jae: who are interested in putting them together to be able to see different perspectives and different, you know, well, I do this this way and I do this with this. So, but having the common language

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Jae: and the common knowledge of the models and the practices,

Marty: All

Jae: think would be fun for me.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Jae: Hence the invitation. Hence the invitation.

Marty: Well, it's, it's reassuring also for I think for a lot of us to know, oh, there are practices. Like I don't have to either get it or not. Like, well, I get to practice at something that's going to give me more capacity for handling my family as well as my work and, and, and, um, and that these are things that I can develop if, you know, as I, as I. those practices.

Jae: Yes, exactly, and I didn't talk about. Case clinics. clinics are a core why they have the coaching circle originally. Um, and what you do is it's a very guided journey where one person will present a case, so something they're struggling with or they want, they want insight about, or they're there, or it can be a group doing it for a project that they wanna develop. Some of your business examples. Um, and, but what you do is one person presents for the case clinic and you do it in, I think it's like an hour and 15 minutes, and there's sort of a timed, there's a very timed, you just follow the worksheet and you do the steps and it takes you through the entire journey of the you

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Jae: that period of time.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Jae: So it's very helpful and very powerful and a lot of people, bill, getting back to your coaching and aspects a lot of people use for coaching, business coaching, career coaching, um, uh, personal coaching are using these practices and the, the case clinics and things like that. and then the experiential social presence in theater practices for coaching.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Jae, you may remember if you've listened to all the episodes, Jamie Conman. Uh, she was, uh, outta Las Vegas and she's, uh, uh, an amazing, uh, marketing and sales, uh, executive now, uh, making multimillion. She loves the deal and one of the things that she said her father said to her was, insight without action is, is pretty worthless. There's if, if, if you don't combine insight with action, then all you've got is a little bit of a dopamine hit. I don't know if, I don't know if she said that or not, but that's kind of the way that,

Marty: those words.

Bill: okay. Okay. So, uh, and, and that's not the first time I'd ever heard that. I, I certainly had heard that before, but I love the way that Jamie put some color to it and, and, uh, really brought it to life in our conversation. But the reason I'm bringing it up right now is because. Someone who does, uh, that knows the model well and facilitates the IFS model for the clients very well, can help them get insights in ways that nothing else will. The I-F-S-I-F-S model is just incredible for that. Um, anytime that as a, as when I'm the client. Facilitator helps me to realize something about myself that I didn't know. And I, I get this rush of insight and some, um, almost fascination and amazement and awe around how is it that I could go inside and learn something about me that I don't already know? How, how can that possibly be? So then the insight occurs and, and it's like puzzle. PII didn't realize it was, I was working on a thousand piece jug jigsaw puzzle, but I, apparently I was. 'cause that piece fits just exactly right in the right spot. And now I've got this insight. Now the que next question is, alright, so what do I do with that? Now that I've got this insight? That was good, that was nice. Uh, but what do I do with it? And what I hear you describing is structure. Process that, that lends itself very well to apply these insights so that it makes a difference in, in someone's life.

Jae: I forgot that we were talking live and I wanted to put you on pause so that I could take notes and I will do that later. And I, that means, my gosh. Thank you. And this is an example of generative dialogue.

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Jae: And this is an example of generative dialogue where the ideas are all and bouncing and growing and something new is emerging. Um, one thing I didn't mention is that all of this UAPs stuff came outta systems thinking. So I wanna say Peter Sge and Otto Sharmer were very famous for systems thinking. I think that's the right term.

Marty: That's right. That's right. Yes.

Jae: okay. Thank you. And IFS systems IFS even has systems in the name. Um, and so that piece of it resonates and the whole emergent phenomenon. So emergent systems. so what I see that has emerged today. So helpful and so powerful, and I'm really grateful for your wonderful ideas and generative dialogue. There you go.

Marty: Wasn't, it wasn't gonna.

Bill: That's that's true.

Marty: But I love that you used that word emergent because that go, going back to our conversation earlier about the difference between the total and the whole, just adding up the parts, right. Um, that there's nothing emergent out of that. It's an analysis, right. But the, but the, the soul of an organization or of a human being, now that's emergent. That's why it's harder to point at too, right? It, it's not, it's, it's, it doesn't exist in the physical realm.

Bill: We do need to begin to wrap up. And so let me ask you, Jae, if someone wanted to get involved in this course, you may have mentioned it earlier, but if so, let's even if you did or didn't, let's go ahead and review it now. How does someone find themselves to the U Lab? Uh, am I, am I saying it right? That.

Jae: you, so it's ulab leading from the emerging future is the full name of the course. But if you in any search engine, well, I've only tried three different ones, but in, in a popular search engine, if you type in Ulab 2025, it

Bill: Hmm.

Jae: bring you to the U school site, which you will have in the, uh, in the course material. Then when you register for it, you go to two places. You, you create an account on the U School platform so you can join the community that's assuming you want to, you can also just do the MITX course. So you could also on a search engine type in MI TX ULAB 2025 and

Bill: Jae, I just pulled it up. So I, what I have in front of me is U School 2025 U lab leading from the emerging future. And that's where people need to go to enroll and register at. And again, they need to create an account, but there's no cost unless they wanna get some, some completion certificate, right.

Jae: No, the, the, sorry, the, the course is actually on the MITX platform, The U school is the community, that's the practice groups and all that. So there are also three tracks to the course, and they're all color coded so you can follow along. So the first track is where you just go to the MITX site. You don't participate in the community. You do it totally self-paced and you just have access to the videos and the readings, and that's on MITX, and that gives you access to the actual course, and that's what gives you the opportunity to get a certificate from the course.

Bill: Got it. Okay.

Jae: On the U School platform that you can join that without enrolling in the course. It's just not gonna be meaningful at all.

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Jae: who did the course a couple of years ago that bounce back on, you know, something comes up or other people at work are doing it, or a spouse is doing it or something, and they bounce back on and rejoin the community without going back over the course.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: And I see that you've already provided that, that website for us in, in the notes that we asked you for. So we'll be sure and put those in show notes. Uh, anything else that you want our listeners to know or. Before we, before we say goodbye and say, thank you for showing up and joining us today.

Jae: I wanna thank all of the listeners because it's the listeners. I always feel like I'm contributing to the podcast by listening, by liking you, by following you. And I so much gratitude for Bill, you and Marty. This has been amazing. I really appreciate this wonderful learning experience. So thank

Bill: Wow. Thank you for the acknowledgement. Thank you very much. You know, uh, the truth is, Jae, that the reason I have this conversation with Marty every week is so that I can. Reserve the time with him and, uh, have these wonderful conversations and then we get to put it out there for anybody else that might, might enjoy it. If we get, if we get a million followers and listeners, that'd be great. Who cares? Because what's really important about this is, is that we're having so much fun having these conversations. Then maybe that's what you're valuing.

Jae: That is so much what I'm valuing and the interpersonal and the, the fun and the, all of the self-like qualities,

Bill: Hmm.

Jae: the clarity and curiosity and creativity and the courage for people to speak up and voice their thoughts online, on the air.

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Jae: if they

Bill: Yeah,

Jae: like saying online versus, you know what I mean?

Bill: right. Exactly. Jae, so nice to meet you. I, uh, you've really wet my whistle too, and I, I, um, I know that I'm probably not gonna get enrolled in the course just because I have already way too much my bucket's overflowing. However, if I had some room in my schedule, I would absolutely jump all over this because I can see that the structure and the processes and the collaboration and the community. Is it gonna be of great, great value for people that are using IFS to make substantial transformative changes in their lives?

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: cool. Okay,

Marty: Thank you so much for being here with us.

Bill: until next time.

Jae: Thank you both.