The Internal War and Compulsions

Bill: Welcome to the True You Podcast. My name is Bill Tierney. I am a compassionate results coach and certified IFS practitioner. And this is my co-host, Dr. Martin Kettle.

Marty: Good afternoon.

Bill: Today, we've, uh, we've begun to talk about the book. Well, what started this conversation was, I was mentioning to you, Marty, about this wonderful book that I've begun to read by Mary O'Malley called The Gift of Art Compulsions. I. Have read the first 60 pages or so of the book. So I'm certainly not an authority on the book or any of the ideas in it, but I'm, I just wanna comment that I'm really moved and touched by the book. It's very meaningful to me. I have, um, I've experienced a few compulsions in my life

Marty: Hmm

Bill: and some of them have were asked, grabbed me and really kind of run my life for me for a long time.

Marty: Might, it might be worth our de, the defining compulsion just to get getting into the conversation, what is a compulsion? What counts as a compulsion?

Bill: You know, when Mary writes about compulsions, she's saying, the way I read it, she's using the word compulsion instead of the word addiction.

Marty: Ah.

Bill: Now, Mary May say something, she may argue that she may say, no, that's not what I mean by when I say compulsion, but when I'm reading it, that's the way I'm reading it. And reading it through that lens produces a real impact for me on my history with convulsion. So what I would say is I understand compulsion to mean something happens. Inside that activates an impulse that becomes so powerful that it's hard to deny it.

Marty: Mm-hmm. I see.

Bill: That could, that could be having that cigarette, taking that drink, eating that cake.

Marty: Um, I just looked up the e etymology, um, word compulsion, um, is related to compel. That's the old English. They're both derived from the ward, meaning to drive or force.

Bill: Hmm. Compelled,

Marty: one

Bill: driven forth.

Marty: or forced to behave in a certain way

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: and now we get into the topic.

Bill: Right, right. Well, and. Yeah. Mary's approach to this is just Mary O'Malley's approach to this is just so, so great. Um, it, and it, and it aligns so much with internal family systems, which is maybe why I, I love it so much. She's, she's not talking about IFS, she's not su suggesting that. You know that we go and, and especially, and, and use the IFS model to explore parts, but it, in essence, she's, she is suggesting that we make friends with the parts of us that influenced to us in our compulsions.

Marty: Mm-hmm. Great.

Bill: I can re, I can remember one of the ways I was relating to the book, she said that she had a friend who had, would, had been a heavy smoker for years

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: and. She was telling the story about this friend who successfully was able to stop smoking using a similar approach to what she's writing about in the book. It made me think of when I quit smoking 31 years ago, and how after several and practically from the, from the year I began smoking, I, I knew I wanted to quit. But then there was this compulsion to continue to light up a cigarette and go buy another pack or a carton. And, um, especially the last four years before I was successful in quitting, I really went to war with my compulsion to smoke. I went to war with myself and all those parts of me that would have me smoke this so, um, 31 years ago, would put us at 1994. If we were to drop ourselves into 1994, what would be, what we'd look around and notice is that there's still a lot of people smoking. Not nearly as many as there had been, but a lot of people were smoking and it was becoming more the norm to not smoke, than to smoke, so,

Marty: yes.

Bill: so those of us that were left in 1994 continuing to smoke, I'll just speak for myself. I felt like the scum of the earth.

Marty: Hmm.

Bill: The majority of people that I watched, I, I began to notice people looking at me as I smoked and feeling very self-conscious. It, it probably helped a lot that I was in, in married to my second wife who had quit smoking and was using shaming to motivate me to quit.

Marty: Oh gosh.

Bill: So at the end of the four year effort, uh, maybe what prompted me to wanna quit. Maybe even more than I ever had before was my daughter as who was born in 1992, barely able to, uh, formulate words, really emphasized how committed I suddenly became to quitting, even though I'd been trying to quit for the last couple of years on, based on shaming from my wife. Now, I wanted to quit for my daughter who said one of her first full sentences was, daddy don't smoke or Stop smoking, or something like that.

Marty: Oh my God, really?

Bill: It just broke my heart. And, uh, so I wanted to quit. Of course, I, I stopped smoking around her at all, but, but I, I had this undeniable compulsion to smoke a cigarette over and over and over again. Um, when, and this talks, this, this, this actually touches on something Mary said as well. When I quit drinking alcohol in 1982, I suddenly went from a one pack a day smoker. To a two day a pack smoker, two pack a day smoker.

Marty: Oh my gosh.

Bill: been smoking two plus packs a day from 1982 to 1994, so, so now to quit cigarettes too, even though I had the shaming of my wife, I felt shame because I'm a sober, remember of AA and I'm yet, I'm still smoking cigarettes. Not, not that AA emphasizes that we should quit smoking it. It just, I thought, well, if, if I quit, can quit alcohol and if I can quit pot, and if I can quit speed, and if I can, why can't I quit smoking cigarettes

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: and I couldn't do it? It's like smoking cigarettes was one of the last holdouts for me. And, and, and what Mary says in the book is, well, that's what happens. We can, we can. You know, wrestle down one of these compulsions and get ourselves to stop doing whatever that is, but something else is gonna creep up. It's like squeezing a, an inflated balloon without popping it. It's going to pop out somewhere else.

Marty: The, the, what is it exactly that's popping out somewhere else,

Bill: The, the, the compulsion and what the compulsion is trying to do for us, the compulsion still has a job to do.

Marty: which is.

Bill: Well, we have to find out. We have to, we have to get into relationship with the part of us that has, that is influencing us to have that compulsion

Marty: Okay. Okay.

Bill: before we can find out what is it trying to accomplish. And, but very likely, predictably, it's gonna fall into the category. It's bring, it's trying to bring us comfort and relief.

Marty: Hmm.

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: Yeah. Yeah.

Bill: I'll, I'll make it quick. The end of the story there is that I. I picked up a pamphlet one day at the pharmacy as I'm waiting to get a, a prescription filled for somebody in my family that said 21 days to quit smoking. So it gave me a plan and I decided, okay, I'm gonna try this plan. What do I got to lose? And, and basically what it says, how, however many cigarettes you're smoking now,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: 10 cigarettes. By the time I got to day five, I'm smoking each cigarette four or five different times. I'm cutting, I'm taking three or four puffs off a cigarette, putting it out, having it later, just, oh, just almost this desperate energy of. I know that, that, that my stop day's coming soon, I'm trying to get as much nicotine out of these five cigarettes left that I can. It was just desperate and, but yes, yet, and it feels still today, like a miracle to me. When the day finally came for my quit day, I didn't smoke and I didn't wanna smoke and I can't tell you why. And then I've got a, then I wonder. You know, where did the balloon pop out next? Then, now that I quit drinking and quit smoking,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: now what? Well, food, and that's what it is for me today. Food.

Marty: Hmm,

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: hmm.

Bill: So it's, it's still in me. I still have that compulsory part that wants to bring me, I assume comfort. I haven't, I haven't done the exploration on this yet. Wants to bring me comfort or ease or relief.

Marty: No. Well, you, you mentioned something in our the word resistance.

Bill: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Marty: And I wasn't sure what, how it fit in, but I knew, 'cause I knew it'd come up when we got talking,

Bill: yeah.

Marty: where does it fit into this?

Bill: Uh, I don't want to overeat. I don't want to use food for comfort.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: I don't want to eat foods that react that are, inflammatory foods for me. Like wheat and sugar.

Marty: so it's. It's another part that resists the compulsion.

Bill: that's right. That's right. This one, this part is saying eat a whole bag of Oreos and don't share them with anybody.

Marty: That's the compulsive

Bill: That's the compulsive part, that this is the part that says sourdoughs bread. Sure. But, but it's sourdough. It's not the same as other bread. You can have sourdough.

Marty: So there are certain. Things in physics and in sports and a lot of fields. if the they apply here. It's a genuine question. I

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: answer. The, the way to deal with resistance is not to resist it.

Bill: Sure, sure. Not to resist the resistance.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: Oh, I see. I see.

Marty: gives it, it grips even harder.

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: it resists even more that's its job.

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: the, the way to deal, and I'm not saying this is in every context, but I'm wondering if like in some fields, the way to deal with resistance. Is not to resist it, but let it use up its energy somehow or redirect it like that.

Bill: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I am not, I'm gonna just honestly disclose live. This'll be a recorded, but I'm not gonna ask to have it edited out. I'll just tell you right now, I am not self-aware enough to know if the periods when I just give into eating

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: me giving into the resistance or not.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Or, or just ceasing the resistance of the resistance.

Marty: Right, right. Yeah.

Bill: I, I'm, I think what it is, is that the compulsion just takes over. That it happens like in waves.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: I'll resist for a while. One of the things she says in the book is that something like 93% of the people that, that go on diets to lose weight, they'll gain that weight back and then find it even harder to lose it again in the future. And that's certainly been true for me.

Marty: I've seen that in people

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: very often. Well, I'm just wondering, uh, maybe this isn't true. What do you, and maybe this book talks about it. It sounds like, especially 'cause we call it a part that is, that represents the, the compulsion. like in its very nature, it's, there's a, a tug of war going on. it's not. Like that the baby knows not to smoke, but so there's, and there's that part of it that knows the, the, the compulsion is just that it's not us. And so it sounds to me like these compulsions, they, they have in their very nature, uh, their own sort of like, they instigate a war inside.

Bill: Yeah, that's right. They do. They do. And, and in fact, that's, that's the way I'm framing all of this for myself is that. That when it comes to compulsions, they are just one element with, of, of the, that's characteristic of this internal war.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: And of course, the impact of an internal war is devastation, exhaustion, exhaustion of resources, uh, devastation of things like self-esteem, self-love, Devastation of connection with myself and with others, devastation of my health. You know, there's, so, there's a lot of consequences, and just knowing the consequences isn't enough to act, to overcome or to reverse whatever the compulsions trying to accomplish.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: and I believe, and I'm learning this from IFS and from Mary O'Malley, uh. Going to war with anything doesn't actually ever end the war. Somebody wins and somebody loses until the next war breaks out.

Marty: Yeah, that's how it works. Exactly.

Bill: So winning a war doesn't end. Doesn't end the end the war. Yeah, exactly. Winning a war doesn't end war. It just makes you the victor for a while.

Marty: Yeah. So this, this thing about not resisting resistance, it's on, it's on both sides of the compulsion itself, is resisting some discomfort or,

Bill: Yep.

Marty: or, um, inability

Bill: fear, something, some pain, some something unresolved from the past. We can say it that way.

Marty: Right, right, exactly. And then the, the resistance to it is resisting it, so,

Bill: That's right. That's more war.

Marty: mm.

Bill: Now, now even the idea to stop resisting the resistance could be another act of war.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: In other words, just another strategy of another part that's invested in trying to solve the puzzle. Puzzle of the unresolved past.

Marty: So. What's the way out?

Bill: Well, I'm learning. I'm learning and, and so I, I can't speak from experience. As you've already heard my story, you know, I can pat myself on the back and any and anybody else that wants to be proud of me can too, that I've been sober for over 42 years. But, but when I'm con congratulated on long-term sobriety, there's no place inside for it to land for a congratulations to land. There's no celebration in here for that. Don't get me wrong, I'm really glad that I don't drink anymore. It's a devastating thing to do to yourself, to your body. And I'm really glad I don't do that. And all I, I don't have to look very far to see how, how much, how far that devastation reaches When I look around at the people in my life, my family origin it for my family. Alcoholism is a legacy burden. It goes way back as far as I can look. And it's, it is, it is devastating. Um, but what is the solution? Okay, so I quit drinking, but did that really solve anything? It, it surely gave me a, a reprieve. It put me in a position where I, I wasn't, it was like a tourniquet. I, I stopped bleeding. I stopped the damage that alcohol was causing, but, but whatever needed, the alcohol is still in me

Marty: Yes. Mm-hmm.

Bill: To some degree. If, if it's been.

Marty: to find, sorry to interrupt, but if you were to find like some healthy thing to replace it, like knitting or whatever, you know, I, some people have told me that they take up, you know, um, some healthy habit to that to replace the bad habit.

Bill: up running.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: I was still smoking

Marty: Oh wow.

Bill: seven months after a counselor in a treatment center told me that. If I didn't start doing something physically, I'd probably drink again. I, I started running 'cause that's what he did. And around the AA tables, we all laughed about just how alcoholic this is. I, within two weeks it was running seven miles a day from nothing. I'd never run before and within two weeks I'm running seven miles every single day.

Marty: Geez.

Bill: So by,

Marty: I see.

Bill: I think.

Marty: became the compulsion.

Bill: right. Seven months later, I ran and I lived in Hood River, Oregon at the time, and seven months later I entered the Portland five miler and set a goal to run that five miler in 35 minutes, and I did it 34 minutes and 59 seconds. But it took me something like 25 minutes before I could catch my breath enough to have a cigarette,

Marty: Oh, come on.

Bill: see how messed up all that is

Marty: Wow.

Bill: because I'm afraid of drinking. I compulsively now go to exercise, to running and, but, but I love running. I love running, but it's still in me. Whatever it is that's driving that, it's still in me.

Marty: So you mentioned making it your friend.

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: What does that get you?

Bill: Hmm. But.

Marty: well, okay. I'm, I'm good with cigarettes. Lala, that's not what you mean.

Bill: That's not what I mean. That means with that, what that means is it is finally getting to the, to, to the table of mediating the conflict,

Marty: Hmm. Okay. The war inside. Mm-hmm.

Bill: the war inside. Right? Right. So what's important , you know, in mediation, both parties, if it's gonna work, feel like their needs, concerns, fears, and worries are, are being seen, known, heard, and understood.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: And that's a start. That's just a start. And, uh, you know, Marshall Rosenberg writes about this in his books, nonviolent Communication, that once we understand each other's needs and feel like we've been seen, seen and, and, and those needs and feelings are, are understood and and respected, now we can begin to talk about how, how can we stop hurting each other.

Marty: Hmm.

Bill: How can I stop hating my compulsion to overeat? And how can my compulsion to overeat stop hurting me?

Marty: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bill: We, we need to understand each other, and that means that from using IFS language, from a self-led place, in other words, with an intention that's probably fueled by love, I, I go inside, I find the part of me that uses food. And, and begin to understand it. Begin and see if it's willing to let me understand it to, to, to reveal itself. To me,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: a trust that I'm not going in there asking these questions so that I can find a way to manipulate it. It out of doing what it does,

Marty: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bill: it's got a job to do. And if I can just go in with, with pure curiosity and, and with the intention only of understanding what is that job and what is it trying to accomplish. Not only will I become enlightened, but the part itself will become more enlightened because nobody's ever asked it.

Marty: Mm-hmm. Right? Yep.

Bill: It's just been doing its lonely job and being hated for it.

Marty: Right.

Bill: Right.

Marty: So what are some of the, just so that there might some people want, like, does this apply to me? Um, 'cause it sounds like this could apply to all kinds of behaviors, or, or thinking patterns.

Bill: And, and some of them may or may not be, um. Defined or identified as compulsive. But if we replace the word compulsive or compulsion with, uh, automatic or automation, then maybe that's the question to ask. What do I do automatically

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: hurting me or hurting others

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: that I don't wanna look at, don't wanna deal with, try not to do and yet still do it. Maybe it's Netflix. Maybe it's gaming, maybe it's sexing. What do I do that I try to justify? Why would you need to justify it if you didn't have something inside saying this isn't okay?

Marty: Mm-hmm. Right. Right.

Bill: What are you doing that you don't want anybody else to find out about? And this, this question can start to feel a little dangerous. I'm already asking questions that are, that might be on the edge of dangerous for some people to, to even consider. But this next question will feel likely, even the most dangerous of all the questions I've asked so far. And that is, what is it you don't want anybody to know about you? What is it you hope nobody ever thinks about you? Because that points directly back to what IFS calls the exiled parts, the parts of us that have been exiled, hidden away, and managed and controlled so that nobody ever finds out they exist within us.

Marty: Which also reminds me of, uh, some, a phenomenon we've talked about in the past, which is that that central inner Who out of, you know, out of survival in a situation when we were little made up something about us that we don't want anybody to know, but it's not even true. We've talked about that many times in different guises, but, so there's the, there's a. It could even not even be true. Once you get in there and attend to this part, what it, what it might think that you shouldn't let anybody know about you might not even be true.

Bill: Yes, I agree with you. So let, let's distinguish that a little bit. So there might be things that I've done that I don't want anybody to find out about. Those things happened. They are true,

Marty: Yes,

Bill: I'm afraid that someone that finds out about it will make it mean about me is what I don't want them to find out.

Marty: That's right. Mm-hmm.

Bill: And maybe even more accurately. What I've made it mean about me is what I don't want them to find out.

Marty: That's right. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Bill: I want to suggest that the inner critic hasn't made anything up. The inner critic is using something I've already decided is true about me and, and trying to hide against me to try to motivate me to not be that. Usually that's what I've found. The, the, the inner critic doesn't so much believe. It's not like the critic is attached to a belief that I'm bad. Let's say, although the critic might say, you're bad, bill. If you do this, that means you're bad. Look how bad you are. Does it believe that I'm bad? Probably doesn't even have a, a horse in the race. It's just assuming that the part that it's trying to manage, control and hide believes it.

Marty: it's trying to, protect against the pain that, You know, if it's right that this is, this is who you are there might be, there might be a, a subtle distinction between like what, CCTI calls your, um, gremlin

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: or landmarks communication courses calls your, your sentence. It's something that. the child makes up about himself to explain something that

Bill: Yes,

Marty: awry.

Bill: a hundred percent with you there on that one. And the, the, the part of me that's holding that belief from that moment that I made that up,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: that's what IFS calls it. The exile, the critic uses that information

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: to control me. So nobody ever finds out.

Marty: Okay.

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: Hmm.

Bill: I, I was amazed in one of my first IFS sessions in therapy when the therapist facilitated an IFS session long before I really understood what she was doing. I thought she was doing voodoo magic weird stuff on me, and she was, but from, you know, from what I knew, it might as well have just been magic. But, but, you know, she asked me did I want, was I interested in getting to know and understand this critic? And I said, hell no. I just want it to go away. I'm tired of it. I'm tired of getting so beat up by it. Gradually, you know, the, the part of me that was saying, hell no, we worked with that part. Said, yeah, I, I do, I do wanna understand why is the critic doing this, doing what it's doing?

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: So we went in and explored it. And when she helped me to connect directly with my critic, and I asked the question, what are, what's your role? What are you trying to do? What's your job? What are you trying to do for me? The critic said, oh, I'm trying to protect you from being criticized.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: What, what?

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: the first time that happened, I, that doesn't make any sense. A hypocrite. You're a critic. You're a critic, and you're trying to protect me from being criticized. That, and then, and then the critic explained it to me, oh no, if I can criticize you so that you don't behave, so anybody else sees, in a way, a way to criticize you, then I've saved you from that. Oh,

Marty: exactly what John Wellwood says in love and awakening, and that's what the, the Stones say in the Inner Critic, that

Bill: mm-hmm.

Marty: they both said that.

Bill: Mm. Yeah.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: so I discovered it organically with the help of IFS and others have discovered it and written about it apparently.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Yeah. And so that seems to be a common theme for the, for the critic. Does the critic care whether or not what it, what it's criticizing me with is true? I don't think so.

Marty: And what, what these sources that I'm coming from, what they say is that you, you, you learn to live. To, to be free around it. You, you, if you, if you try and obliterate it, it will fight back. It wants to live right? It wants to protect you, it wants to do whatever it's supposed to do in life. so it's just awareness, awareness, awareness, awareness of it. When it, when you, when it comes up, you're like, oh, I know what that is and I'm not going to be run by it. And so you're free to, to, to, you know. Get back in your power. Move on.

Bill: And yet that critic's gonna persist unless I can help it solve its problem. It's got a problem it's trying to solve.

Marty: mm-hmm.

Bill: And, and so if I can develop a relationship with the critic so that I understand the problem it's trying to solve, and if I have a way to solve that problem and make that offer and the critic accepts it, and then I'm, if I'm, if we together then are successful in solving that problem. Then the critic doesn't have to do their job anymore,

Marty: Right.

Bill: and the problem is always the exile. If we can help the exile, that's erroneously concluded that there's something wrong with me,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: so that it can see that whatever situation, whatever the circumstances was that had a draw, that conclusion, as you said earlier, we make up something about ourselves. If it can see that, that there's a. A better explanation for why that thing happened other than because I'm not lovable or because I'm too much or too not enough.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Once that exile sees that and then releases the old belief and the energy and the emotion that that, that's been packed around all these years because of it, now there's the possibility that neither the exile, the Excel no longer needs to be controlled and managed. It can be free to go back into its original role. The critic also can be free from the job of criticism. Critics hate their job, they hate their jobs. And if we can help them be free of their jobs, now they can go back into their original roles, whatever they were when they gave them up, sacrifice them in order to protect us from being criticized. It's a beautiful thing and, and so whatever part of me has me had, had me smoking two plus packs a day. Had me taking as many cross tops as I could when I was 19, 20 years old so I could stay up two or three days in a row. Uh, whatever Part of me had me, uh, over sexing whatever part of me had me over drinking and, and whatever. Part of me now has me overeating, not because I'm hungry, because I mean, I, I eat sometimes and I'm not hungry and I don't know why I'm eating and I do anyhow. I'm surprised I don't weigh. Three times as much as I do, whatever that is inside, if I can get into relationship with it, just in the way that I described getting in relationship with that inner critic and so that I understand the part and, and understand what kind of problem it's trying to solve, and then actually help it solve that problem, then we might not have to do this dance anymore.

Marty: Just outta curiosity, you have an inkling, or if you were to venture a guess that is in you that at this point that compels you to eat?

Bill: Uh, no. All I can say is there's a part of me that uses that as a strategy to deal with something that I haven't learned about yet.

Marty: Understood. Yeah.

Bill: And interestingly, although. I used to have a figuring out part that that was so dominant that it wouldn't let me listen to a part because it already had it figured out like this. Figuring out part would have a theory and say, oh, well, I, I can tell you why. I can tell you who it is and I can tell you what they're doing and I can tell you why.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: But none of that made any difference. What does make a difference is a, is actually connecting with what, okay, whatever part, are you willing to talk with me? Whatever part has me overeating, and you know, when the time to do it is. On my way to the refrigerator, stopping and saying, okay, what am I experiencing in my body right now? Let me just really notice what's happening with my energy, what's going on with my thinking? What are the emotions I'm experiencing right now? And now if I can pause long enough, I might be able to ask the part of me that has me walking to the refrigerator.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: are you, what are you trying to do for me right now?

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Can, can we stop? Can we just look at this first? I mean, I'll go to the refrigerator. Sure. But can we talk first? That's the beginning.

Marty: I had a friend, you know, you know, I was in, uh. Or maybe you don't know. My car was hit recently.

Bill: I didn't know that.

Marty: Yeah. And after the accident I was just like, just like, un just nervy,

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: And some friend of mine said, oh, I'll bet you'll you, you're gonna want a nice stiff drink tonight, aren't you? I went, That I, I feel like there's something I need to deal with here be before I would even think about getting a drink. know, like, I, I don't wanna. That's not gonna solve anything here, it just showed like that's, that's an automatic for him. Like, oh, you're unnerved. Have a drink.

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: Not that I don't like to have a drink. I'm not saying, you know, I'm, I'm immune to that, uh, desire, I'm not compelled to use it to get out of nervousness.

Bill: go. That's a great, great use of the word in the sentence. Absolutely. Listen, I wish we had so much, I really wish we had more time to talk about this, and I'm not gonna make the promise that we'll talk about it again later. I, maybe we will, maybe we won't. But I do need to get ready for my men's group, so what a great conversation.

Marty: Thank you for sharing. So, disclosed, Lee, I appreciate it.

Bill: you're welcome. Uh, it, it's really a gift to me to be able to do so. It really, really is. Thank you. Thanks for holding the space and thanks for listening and, and if you've listened to this podcast episode and have been impacted by it in any way and would like to reach out to me or Marty, emails will be, ways to contact us will be in the show notes. Uh, essentially what we've been talking about is maybe most of the rest of the world is, is talking about in, in terms of recovery. And when I use that word recovery, what I'm talking about is recovery of my true, authentic self. It's whatever, whatever blocks me from being able to access the resources of my true, uh, authentic self that makes it hard to overcome things like compulsions or to resolve them in any way. So yeah, I would love to talk with anybody that that was moved by this conversation. Thanks, Marty.

Marty: My pleasure.