The Myth of Maintenance

Marty: Welcome, welcome back to the True Podcast. Hopefully it's, you're coming back. We like it when you come back. Um, 'cause the dialogue deepens and, and gets more detail and interesting. Every time we meet, I. I'm talking about me and my partner in this crime, bill Tierney, who is a compassionate results based coach and is also an internal family systems practitioner. I gotta tell you, it's a powerful combination. I've learned so much from you, bill.

Bill: Oh, thanks Marty.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: I'm looking at those books behind you and I'm looking at all the books that I've read and all those that I haven't. I just ran across immunity to change the other day and I thought, gosh, I can need to pick that up again in traction. You know, such a DA variety of, of these different, oh, what's the other one getting real I see behind you there. Yeah. All these different influences that we have in common and so much that we don't, so that we kind of feed each other a little bit.

Marty: I mean, and this is like. A sixth of all of the books I have, I have you know, two more of these two

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: Actually, those downstairs are even taller. I have a lot of books. I enjoy reading a

Bill: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Marty: it's, uh, it's one I like. I really enjoy reading. It's fun.

Bill: Yeah. I can tell. Well, me too. Me too. Unless I don't, and then I don't usually finish the book.

Marty: I look forward to reading the book that you're finishing right now that you're writing right now.

Bill: Oh man. I, I can't wait to put it in your hands and have you read it? I, I, I want it to be good and it might be a little while, but, um, yeah. I'm, I. It's been an experience. It's, it's, it is quite an experience. It's a growth opportunity, right? Even just writing it, because the more I write, it's my memoir, and the more I write, the more I remember. The more I remember more I wanna write, the more detail I get. It's incredible at 70 years old that I can remember in so much detail what was happening. For example, when I was 28 years old and landed in the treatment center after seven months of sobriety.

Marty: And those, but those are such key moments that, that they're, the information is all there.

Bill: It is. Yeah.

Marty: you know, you were present.

Bill: Well that and, and, and it had such a huge impact on who I became today

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: as I was sharing some of what I was writing about today with you before we hit record, you made the comment, boy, and you are not that guy at all anymore. That's just not you anymore at all. And. I love hearing that, and of course I know that that's true and I'm, and my comment was, yeah, I think from since then, I must be on version 5.0. It seems like I, I don't recognize many versions of myself from the past.

Marty: This brings up our topic for the day to me because, uh, you know, I think it's,

Bill: I.

Marty: think it's a sign of. as soon as I started to say it. I doubt it. If it was true of a great person who is on version five, like, you know, uh, I think many, many people walking the planet, they're still on. They haven't even hit version one yet. They're still, and you have, have been a real warrior for your own transformation for many years, and it shows.

Bill: Oh yeah.

Marty: And so the topic we wanted to talk about today is maintaining those growth levels. You know, sometimes people will achieve my, you know, version two of myself, then it was like a mid glorious month, and then I'm slipping back into version one again. You know,

Bill: Oh.

Marty: in the spiritual community that I bump that I have to do it, there's a lot of talk about, um. You know, like somebody will tell a story like, I had this experience, you know, I felt the presence of God. I was really hooked into the one for about five minutes

Bill: Hmm.

Marty: and I can't quite get back there. That sort of thing. So our topic for today is how to maintain your, when you've had a breakthrough or when you achieved a certain level of spiritual or psychological personal growth. You know, how do you maintain that, um, and sustain it and grow from there, rather than just having it be like a, you know, like, like, you know, like getting high and then when you come down you're like, oh, the world is really just the same as it's always been and I still don't know what I'm doing here.

Bill: Yep. Very topic. I'm really glad you're bringing it up.

Marty: Well, you know, it's, it's important.

Bill: Yeah. Yeah. So if, if I were to ask you that question, how do you maintain your personal development and growth? What's the first thing that comes to mind for you?

Marty: Well, I do where the first place that I go is to my spiritual life, which, um, feeds my professional life. And, um, it's, it's incredible. If I go back to my books that I've read 40 times and I just open randomly somewhere, boom, like, it gets me right back, like, oh, this is, this is the stuff. This is eternally true. This is what I've forgotten, you know, need to be practicing again. That for me the ticket back to, and there are other things that I do, um, to get outta my head because that's, that's where the pattern gets established, is in my mind. And then I, you know, and my attitudes toward it. And so if I can. Get rehook into the, the larger truth about me and my growth, you know, by, by, um, consulting a wise person, right? Or, uh, doing an, you know, reliable exercise for self-examination. That will get me back on track too.

Bill: Yes. Yeah, yeah. Self-reflection. Especially for me, uh, structured exercises with clear, a clear path that, that walks me through a process to, to lift self-awareness. That's that's powerful.

Marty: Just taking, I mean the, the, and, and I don't wanna make it sound too complicated. Sometimes it's just taking time. Just getting out of the rat race. Just give yourself some time, you know, I mean, muscles are like this too. Like you, you know, sometimes you have like, I don't know about you, but I get arthritic pain or tightness in my, my legs and sometimes all, all I need to do is just lay down and stop trying to fix it. And when, when the mind and the body have let go, I. Wow. All of that, all that pain and tension is has gone away. So sometimes it's just about like, give yourself the space and time.

Bill: I would say the, you know, first answer for me is stay on the path. Get on the path, and stay on it.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Um, but don't limit yourself to the path that you start on. You notice, notice when you're called to take this exit and head in a different direction. And, uh, I, I, you know, my history as you know, in includes, you know, the first 20 years of my sobriety, uh, which I considered to be the first 20 years of my re recovery. Um, I was on essentially a single path. I trying the best I could to work the best 12 step program that I could, whether it was Alcoholics Anonymous or Adult Children Of Of Alcoholics or Al-Anon and Great Eight Lane Highway to be on it. It's well traveled, it's proven. There's a lot of people on that, on that path and I felt drawn to, I. At first, uh, maybe what you might call a frontage road, that that paralleled the 12 step, but wasn't in the midst of all that thick traffic. So in other words, it included things like reading a lot of these books. I, I got really lucky with one of my first AA sponsors. He wasn't, um, just a traditional 12 stepper. He was very interested in metaphysics.

Marty: mm-hmm.

Bill: So he introduced me to books like, uh. Written by authors like Emmett Fox and OG Mandino and uh, um, who's the author that wrote the, um, Jonathan Livingston, Siegel and Bridge Cross Forever. And Richard Bach. Richard Bach, yeah. So he introduced me and none of these books directly relate to the 12 steps, but I was so early in sobriety. That I didn't know any better and I just began to read these books and they really expanded my mind. Way, way, way beyond

Marty: Mm-hmm. That's, I think that's, I, I just wanna like mark that, like, if, if we were teaching and there was a chalkboard behind us, I'd underline that.

Bill: what?

Marty: you gotta get out of your, you usual way of thinking.

Bill: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So the question is how do you maintain it?

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: I, I wanna say that in my experience, if there's too much effort going into maintaining, then there's not enough interest going into expanding

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: that it, that it can get out of balance. Like maintaining can, can feel like a rut. Pretty soon it can feel like a plateau, a rut. And now it's gonna, and it feels like effort and trying and it's hard, it's hard to maintain when in that mode. If I'm not supplementing the maintenance of what I've achieved so far with some, some fresh water, some, some oxygen, some, some expansion of my mind, then I, I kind of lose interest.

Marty: There are a lot of

Bill: I,

Marty: of thought and, and I'm thinking of business now that say, you know, if you're not growing, if you think you're maintaining, you're actually slipping.

Bill: yeah.

Marty: Is there is no maintaining is what a lot of the business growth books, business development books say you, you, you have to be growing, you have to be expanding your or, or you're fooling yourself. You're

Bill: I absolutely agree with that. Um, have you ever heard of a guy by the name of Steve Chandler? He's, he's a coach and, um. I think it's okay for me to say he's got a 12 step background and he wrote a book, he wrote a, he's a prolific writer.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: The book that I'm listening to now is written 20 years ago. It's called or more called Reinventing Yourself.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: And that he makes exactly that point is that, um, he'll, he even goes so far as to say the pursuit of happiness is not the maintenance of security. I. This is not a direct quote, this is basically what I'm hearing him say. The, the achievement of happiness is not as a result of, of the, um, maintenance of security or the OR, or creating a structured life in such a way that you feel secure. The,

Marty: you put it that way, or when he puts it that way, it makes it very clear.

Bill: yeah. Yeah.

Marty: Yeah, like security that I. Who is it that says, you know, life is either a daring adventure or it's, or it's nothing.

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: Right. If you, if it's all about just being secure.

Bill: That's also, that's all about survival

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: and there's not a lot of joy in that.

Marty: Yeah. It's not ultimately fulfilling. It, it, it's safe,

Bill: Mm-hmm. There are times in life when that's what requires the focus. The majority of our focus,

Marty: correct. That's correct. But it's not what you want written on your tombstone.

Bill: he survived until he didn't.

Marty: Right.

Bill: That's the tombstone.

Marty: He made it through until he didn't, know?

Bill: Yeah. Yeah. So I think to put a finer point on Steve's teaching. According to what I listened to as I walked and ran, ran this morning, uh, that the, the happiest people are the people that are involved in personal growth, that are growing or business growth or some sort of growth. I. Like, find somebody that's building a house, you know, that, that actually enjoys building houses. Find somebody in the middle of building a house and they're whistling and they're having fun and they're joking and throwing ba banter back with their cohorts and

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: or find somebody that's, that's in the middle of an art project that they're creating something. Or find me an hour ago working on my book. I, I was delight. I, I mean, I was happy, very happy. I'm happy now, of course, but, but, um, I believe that I'm a happy person. Most of the time, because I'm in the middle of growth almost all the time.

Marty: Well, I'll just give you a quick example. This morning at the pool, you know, it's all of us. We're all there at the same time every day to swim and, uh. There was this one guy, he's even older than me, he's like

Bill: What.

Marty: old and, and he was, and he was like all a Twitter, like just jovial and talking to everybody and you could see like, wow, what lit him up?

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: And one of the younger guys who wasn't there, but he said, I signed up to get trained for him in the triathlon. I'm not just gonna be swimming anymore. I'm gonna, and he's 70 years old. And the, you know, the rest of us who are just there maintaining,

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: we're like, I want some of that.

Bill: Yeah. You gonna sign up for a tryout for long then? Yeah. That's great. So he challenged himself.

Marty: Exactly.

Bill: Yeah. Yeah. A a a question that I love and haven't actually been a part of this conversation for a while, but a question that I love is, you know, what's your, what's your growing edge here

Marty: I love that

Bill: in this area? I do too. I do too.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: And so let's go back to the original topic, which may, but maybe now we need to change because we've just established that maintaining. Personal development is a, is a hell of a lot of work and a whole, not a whole lot of fun.

Marty: It might even be an illusion that you can't just maintain. You're either,

Bill: You're growing or you're sliding backwards. It's kinda like trying to climb a hill.

Marty: right. I mean, that kind of makes sense. Like if I'm still applying the same tools or you know, I. Running my business on the same principles, uh, and, and, and techniques that I was 10 years ago. You're probably slipping. Yes, because things have changed.

Bill: Yeah, Well, and there's something about, that's back to what Chandler's saying is that there's so some joy. There's joy in growth. And I believe joy is, is like the fuel that that really keeps us happy.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: excuse me, that growth is the fuel that keeps us happy.

Marty: I do think that there's something about coming back. You know, um, so it's not always expansion through something brand spanking new, but it, you wanna come back to something that, know, an understanding of self. You know, the, and, and then go from there integrating the new, I think there has to be that otherwise, it, it's just, just disjointed. And I know people like this, they've done themselves at this program and then throw themselves at that technique and they, they, and none, none of it sticks because there's, there's some relationship to self that does need, you need to start from there, right? But then bring in the new expansive stuff.

Bill: Mm-hmm. I'm thinking as you're saying this about my experience with the work of Byron Katie, which you hear me talking about often. Um, it's only been eclipsed by me talking about IFS now for the last, how long has it been? Nine years. But, but, but Byron Katie was the. Hottest brand going for me for 15 years. And, and I mean, I loved it. And, and, and it was the, it was a model that, that, that hasn't changed since, since Byron Katie came up with this model in the early nineties. It hasn't changed. There's still the same four questions in the turnaround.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: But, but, uh, as a user of her model that I began to learn in 2002, I. I understood it better and gotten more prolific at it and, and, and, and understood it better. And there, there didn't seem to be any end to thoughts that I could question so as to access, freedom and liberation from the limiting the limitations of false beliefs. But in 2016, now, 14 years after, I've learned about Byron Katie and been using it very consistently, this whole time I'm introduced to the internal family systems model. And suddenly it took about a, I don't know, I'd say it took about a two year break from Byron Katie just to study and learn about the internal family systems model. And then one day one of my old Byron Katie clients came to me and said, how's this IFS work with Byron Katie?

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: And what a great question. I, I had a, I had a sense that it would work, but I hadn't ever tried to get it to fit. And, and that day we found that they sewed together just beautifully. And, and when, when that happened, the exper the, the result of that was greater than the sum of the two models.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: That was Byron Katie plus IFS should be whatever Byron Katie Plus IF Fs should equal, but it was far greater than that expansive.

Marty: I think it'd be, I think it'd be good advice, you know, to, to say, go back to the last time where you felt connected to yourself, and then start like, like what was working and notice what you know, didn't account for where you're at now. That's where you can start to grow. But as, as opposed to just like scrapping me.

Bill: Oh yeah, no.

Marty: Somewhere, you know, like go back to last. back to where you last, we're tracking your growth

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: and it was happening, right? And then, then look for what needs to be expanded from there. I.

Bill: I wonder if we could take that idea that you're explaining right now and put it into, um, an example.

Marty: Well, I do. That's a great, I that's a very important I idea. I wanna do that. And I just wanna, before we do say that there's some. Evidence, some substance to what we're saying. If you look at it from a Joseph Campbell point of view, the hero's journey is the, the human story and key to the hero's journey is that the hero comes back to where he's been and sees it in a new light. That's the key moment

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: hero's journey.

Bill: Yeah,

Marty: To recognize oneself and then, you know, expand from there. Take a new, take a new Dack from that moment,

Bill: yeah.

Marty: I've been here before. I know what this is. Like, let me do something different now. Better informed. It's like we're better informed.

Bill: The lens has broadened or changed altogether?

Marty: So, okay, so then go ahead.

Bill: Well, the, I'm just gonna ask you to help me with this. What, what? Um, because I think I'm grasping what, what you, the point that you were making previously when I said let's have an example. I guess the reason I'm asking for an example is 'cause I do wanna understand better what it is that you're saying.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Do you recall what you were saying?

Marty: Yes. Well, I'm an example.

Bill: Okay,

Marty: I mean, let me get some, let me get some support here as we are talking.

Bill: sure. Anytime.

Marty: Well. Earlier this year, in the middle of the winter, I. Was reading my teacher's writings and I recognized that the, what I needed to glean this time, most importantly, was the relationship between having courage and being content and how they, they feel like you, you, you have to be in a place of contentment with yourself and your life in order to take an next courageous step. Like if, if you, if you are suffering and you. Do something wild and crazy. It's dangerous actually. And vice versa, you know, like, it's the fact that you've had courage to say what you need to say in a difficult conversation or, uh, you know, breakthrough. The glass ceiling you've had on your ability to earn money or, or to run the 50 yard dash. That, that, having had that courage that, you know, you, you get a sense of contentment with my yourself. Like I've, I've broken through, I, I understand myself bigger than I did before. So the relationship with those two started just really humming in me. And, and I, I felt really, I have felt really great, for the last four months. And been focused on being courageous and content. And then over the, over the last weekend, it started to slip away. Like I started to doubt myself. I, I, you know, was asked to do something as, as a musician that I felt, oh, I don't think I can. And so all that courage and contentment was slipping away and I wanted to get it back. Right.

Bill: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And do you have any idea why was slipping away?

Marty: Well, I don't, I think I needed certain prac, I needed to establish practices to keep growing. I was gonna say maintain, but keep growing. Right. I, I hit that. I hit that plateau and it felt great. And, and, but just to count on that, to stay forever,

Bill: Oh yeah.

Marty: that's what we've established won't happen. uh, you know, I need, I need, I, I needed to look at what, what's gonna preserve that. And one of, one of the pieces of advice that I've gotten was take, give yourself time to get, you know, to. To get back in yourself. Um, just take, that's one thing that, that I've learned, uh, since the, the weekend is, well, have you been taking time, you know, to get back to your courageous and content self. So that's, that's one thing.

Bill: So you've been taking some time,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: and I heard you say too, and I'm wondering if this, this is part of that, during that time, is that when you went back and read from your teacher, your mentor,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: so that plugs you back into who you are and what's valuable and what's true for you, and what intentions you have for yourself and for your life. I.

Marty: Also a character in a novel that I love who represents the, the, these qualities. And I re-read the things that people said at his funeral in the book. remind me of who I, I mean to be, that was also helpful.

Bill: Yeah. So you were reminded of who you mean to be, you're, you were reminded of your intention.

Marty: Yes. Mm-hmm.

Bill: Are you back? Are you back into that space you were in for four months?

Marty: Maybe 75% of the way back.

Bill: So you've got the momentum moving that in that direction again.

Marty: Yes, I

Bill: Okay.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: So there's this principle that was referred to when I was attending 12 step meetings that I would hear occasionally and, and I think it actually is in the, in the AA big book, something about resting on your laurels.

Marty: Yes.

Bill: So that sounds like what you're describing.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: that, that if you've rest on your laurels and, and, and are satisfied with the growth that you've had, soon you'll find that you've lost it.

Marty: Right, right. Exactly. Um. That is, and that is another thing that I've been thinking about since I recognize this over the weekend, and it's like, oh, well, what's the next, you know, uh, what's the next challenge you? You know, what, what's the next thing you want to take on

Bill: Right.

Marty: as this person that you intend to be?

Bill: What's the growth edge for you?

Marty: Yeah,

Bill: Right.

Marty: It looked like to be pursuing that, you what would provide the friction needed to keep the transformation going? You know, what's the

Bill: Oh wait, what? You have to have friction to get, keep transformation going.

Marty: well, I don't mean friction in a bad sense, but you know, like you need friction to start a fire.

Bill: Okay. And maybe friction to have traction.

Marty: Yes, exactly. You need, you definitely need friction to have traction.

Bill: it. Okay. Got it. There's that book right there. Traction.

Marty: Yes.

Bill: That's where that idea came from.

Marty: Yeah. And so, you know, a couple of things have, you know, I've already started like, oh, well it's time to. Transform my space. It's time to, uh, look at doing a triathlon. It's, you know, like I've been doing a lot of thinking about my book. It's time to start committing words to page like that. The, these things I are helping me to see like, oh yes, there's, that takes courage. And in getting into it is giving me more a sense of contentment.

Bill: That's part, that's one element of your joy, your happiness, your contentment that you've had up until, apparently just recently, over the past four months, just being around you all the time. I hear you talking an awful lot about this new book that you're writing, beauty.

Marty: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Bill: Is that the name of the book or is it's, that's the topic of the book.

Marty: It's probably both,

Bill: Okay. Okay.

Marty: but I, I, I thought I had the top, the title of my. Last book long before I realized, Nope,

Bill: That's not it. Yeah.

Marty: not it. So I'm, I'm, I like the idea of just giving it a, a one You know, there've been a couple books published recently that are like that abundance

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: and, uh, carbon, um, is, uh, uh, Paul Hawkins new book. It's just called Carbon.

Bill: Hmm. Okay.

Marty: And so I like that, that, you know, it's attractive to me and so I think it might very well just be called beauty.

Bill: Yeah. Yeah, I like that. And, and anyhow, that's got you inspired. Thinking about writing that book, doing the preliminary research that you've been doing, just allowing your mind to create along these lines and, and begin to build some ideas around what will put, what, what you will put into the book that's, that's been keeping you happy. And, and I'm wondering if, uh, well, first of all, let me just stop there. Would you agree with that, that that's been an el, a big element and why you've been so happy?

Marty: Yes, yes.

Bill: Okay. I. All right. So I'm wondering

Marty: thinking about money is another one. Right. That, you know, like knowing that I, I had myself covered financially has been a help I.

Bill: that's helpful to not be triggered and to not have my parts triggered by concerns about security is very, very helpful. And I just wanna acknowledge that if someone's listening and they have concerns about their security. That's gotta be dealt with. That's that. You can't expect that to be Contentful and joyful. Um, and until that's dealt with and, and dealing with, it means actually doing something about it. Not just, not just doing affirmations, not just waiting for God to do it for you. Maybe you do those things in addition to, but that, but you identify a, a, a realistic way to, to make a difference so that you, you, you can solve that security issue. Because what happens on the other side of that is access to the resources that are kind of locked up. You don't have access to these re resources until the parts of you that are concerned about security can relax knowing, okay, you're, I'm okay.

Marty: Yeah, to give you a concrete example, 'cause those are always good. I was, I was part of what had me, you know, I. Losing the threat of courage and contentment was, I want, I don't want, I didn't wanna buy another fossil fuel burning car, and my old car was getting to the point where it needed to be traded in and I thought cost would be prohibitive of my moving into an ev and, and yet, you know, so I was caught. And I finally, I was just, I took courage and I went down and spoke with the dealership. You know, like, what should I do? You know, should I put repair money into this car or can I afford an ev? And they, they held me sort it all out. I got a very good deal on a new car. I got a little bit of money on the old car and you know, as now I'm content again, like I have power. I moved things forward. It's working. I.

Bill: From the point that you're making right now, I'm pulling something else out that a listener may be very interested in, and especially if they live in your area, a good, honest car salesman, someone that with integrity that actually helped you sort through the problem. Not to achieve their agenda, but to support you and what you were trying to accomplish. That's fantastic. If you, if you'd be so willing, would you please send me an email with the contact information for that dealership and that salesperson? So if there's somebody that's listening that lives in your area, they can reach out to them.

Marty: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. He's a

Bill: Yep.

Marty: you know, he, he's not, um, well, I, I won't say what he's not. He's, he's a very good man.

Bill: Yeah. Well, I, and, and some of my comment comes from three years of selling cars myself.

Marty: Hmm.

Bill: And I've been in the bus. So given that I've been in the business, I know what is possible, but I also also know what is unfortunately a little bit more common.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: So what you just described is a bit of a standout and, and out an outlier and.

Marty: And that was something I was dealing with, and I needed to, I needed to break through that and trust. Right. That's, that's a, I, that's also, it might be part of my, you know, courage, contentment, and trust is a big part of

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: Um, and, uh, and I just, like, I need somebody who, I need to present this in a way that I bring out a trustfulness in the person. And, and so I was very vulnerable, you know, opposed to playing it. You know, playing my cards close to my chest and hinting at things and, and trying to get information. Like I, I was willing, you know, to just, here I am naked help. You know?

Bill: And that's a reflection of, of what might appear to others is courage from, but as a result of the personal development work that you've done, uh, you, in other words, you, I believe you did that because you trust yourself.

Marty: That's right. Yeah.

Bill: You trust yourself to discern, to know who is trustworthy, to know you, trust yourself to make a good decision, and you trust yourself to be vulnerable and, and be able to manage, uh, internally. Whatever happens if, if you happen to run across someone that, that you shouldn't have been vulnerable with.

Marty: This is ano, this is a great topic for a, a whole episode. Um, 'cause I think a lot of men especially think of vulnerability, like, well, why would I make myself vulnerable? That makes no sense. I'm just gonna get hurt.

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: Right? Whereas I. The way we are talking about it, it takes courage to be vulnerable. Courage first, and then the vulnerability.

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: And, and if you, and why would you do that? Because that's when you get trust. That's when you get solid input. That's when you get growth.

Bill: Yeah. So great example. Of, of what happens when your security is in question or is unresolved. There's something about security that needs to be resolved now that you've got that resolved it. I don't know how much that played into your discontent or how much worry, concern, or fear that you had around your car.

Marty: A lot because that that's, that's a security thing, you know, for, for me in this day and age to have a, a car and have a payment I can afford and all of that, that that's all part of security for sure.

Bill: Well that, and it also, it, um, supports your, your integrity, your values, what's important to you. You got an EV instead of a. Uh, carbon producing car. And, and so that's all gotta feel really good for you. And, and maybe that's part of the moving back in the direction of at least 75% of back where you wanted to be. Here's another point I I wanna make before I forget, is that, um, if you think about, um, the journey now I'm gonna just reference the local interstate highway that goes through Spokane, Washington, which is Interstate 90. And, um, if, if I'm traveling from Interstate 90 to Seattle from Spokane, it's about a four and a half hour drive, about 325 miles. And along that route there are, are, um, major, um, junctions where I can turn north or south, uh, or, you know, northwest or southwest and, and land in different parts of the state or, or land in different states. I.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: for example, I just came back from, uh, Vancouver, Washington, and I traveled along the Columbia Gorge, which is interstate I 4 84, uh, all the way along the upper northern crest of, uh, Oregon. Uh, so I drop it out of Washington down into to, to the Oregon side of the Columbia River and traveled all the way down. That's about 160 miles from where I turned in there, and then back north again into Vancouver.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: And so there's all these different exits that I needed to take in order to get to my destination. I knew where I was going and fortunately I had a GPS that that showed me how to get there. I could just follow maps. I didn't need to know in advance exactly how to get there because I trusted that I'd have GPS. I believe we have an internal GPS. I believe that when we have our basic needs met, when all of that's been addressed and we. Are doing the work that we need to do in order to heal the past that needs to be healed. That we, that the, the, the speaker and the clarity of that internal guidance gets louder and clearer. That's why I believe personal development is so important. And, and so for, for me, let's go back to Interstate 90. I'm going at Long Interstate 90, and it feels like that's exactly what I'm supposed to be doing. Until I'm not anymore. And now something's calling me to take, um, an exit, let's say towards Pasco. Kennewick what, uh, the tri, what we call the Tri-Cities here in the state of Washington. Well, that's gonna take me way off the path to Seattle. But if I'm feeling strongly drawn to do that in, in my personal development, I need to do that. And when I ignore that, that calling and push myself to continue towards Seattle, and in fact, where I'm supposed to be going is the Tri-Cities. I am gonna drop out of that maintenance that I'm gonna feel discontent, I'm gonna begin to feel unhappy. It's gonna con, in other words, that calling is gonna continue to call

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: until I slow down and, and really either slow down and stop and look at it and, and, and figure out why I'm being called in this direction. Or just take a leap of faith and, and move in that direction and see what happens.

Marty: So analogously, would this be like people in their lives, you know, they get the notion like, well, gosh, it should be nice to go to The Bahamas. Or, gosh, something tells me, you know, I ought to. Join a men's group and then, and then the response is, oh, no, I'll, I'll, you know, I'll just stay doing what I'm doing.

Bill: Yeah, that's, yeah. Yeah, those are good examples of it. Um. Here's a good example. In, in 2009 AF I was in the mortgage business and we had this huge mortgage meltdown in, in the country. A big, big financial crisis. Those of us that were adults at that time will remember, and being in the mortgage business I, that had a huge impact on me because. Interest rates, the real estate market. Everything, everything was upside down. The, the underwriting standards and demands for mortgage companies changed like overnight. And it went from treating all of my borrowers like customers to treating them like suspects. And so nobody would borrow money and the, and the, and, and if they did have to borrow money, the, the process was so painful and tedious that it was no fun being a mortgage lender anymore. What hadn't been that much for fun for me anyhow. And, and, and I wanted outta the business. I wanted to do something else. And I, I had the thought, what would I do? I don't wanna go back in the grocery business. I don't wanna go back to selling cars. I don't wanna go back to the insurance agency. I insurance business. I don't wanna go back to real estate. I. I don't wanna go back to doing anything I've always already done.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: I wanna do something new. What would it be? Well, I really like working with people. I like sponsoring people in 12 Step. I like doing the work of Byron Katie and helping people do that. Maybe I should be a therapist,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: well, how do I be a therapist? I, I'd have to go to, I'd have to go to college and I've never been to college before. I wonder how long that would take. So I signed up for some classes at the community college and I, and at that time I was, what was it in two th I was 55 years old, 54 years old, and, and I went to some classes and man, did I, I have fun. I. I just loved being in college and, uh, it was kind of fun to be there and be the oldest guy in the room, you know, 20 years older than the professors and, and, uh, sitting there with kids right outta high school. It was just, it was very, very fun and I loved learning. I, I couldn't believe, I used to think that I was a math learning. I, I couldn't believe I used, math was my weakest. I loved college, but college costs money. And I didn't have any, and I didn't even wanna go further in debt, so I gave up on that drain. So now that inner guidance was nudging me in that direction, you know? And circumstances of my life helped. We had the big mortgage meltdown. I couldn't do loans anymore. I couldn't make any money as a mortgage lender, at least, unless I, unless I could survive somehow and waited it out until things returned to normal. So I, I was kind of complaining to somebody and saying, I'm just so disappointed. I, I thought maybe I could be a therapist, but as it turns out, it's gonna put me way in debt and I'll probably be 70 years old before I can get a license to, to do therapy. So that's just a bad idea. And this person said, Hey, you know, you should go talk to my life coach. Uh, I thought, what a joke. No way. I'm not gonna go talk to a life coach. That's ridiculous. Well, anyhow, she persisted and, uh. History, you know, so I never would've guessed. I never would've guessed that I would've wanted to be a life coach. But after I talked to Carlos, one hour conversation with Carlos, I was so inspired

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: that I changed just like that. I went out and started getting coaching clients.

Marty: What do you say to people who go, well, how do I avoid the detours? Like, I don't wanna waste time going to college and spending money when I should go straight into coaching.

Bill: Yeah, I, I don't know that there's an answer for that. I really don't. I've had so many detours, I've had so many careers that I, that I either just did because I had to have money or did because I enjoyed for a while and then didn't anymore, and.

Marty: Well that's, this is my suspicion is that there, there are no detours there. It all is part of

Bill: Okay. Absolutely. Every single thing that I've ever experienced was necessary. I really believe this. Everything that I experienced was necessary and, and made me who I am today and helped inform the decisions that I make Now.

Marty: Totally. Totally.

Bill: So they aren't really detours that I, I think that's probably the answer to that question. Those aren't really detours. It's, it's important. It's necessary.

Marty: a Tolkien set, or not Tolkien, but one of his characters there even, um. Those who wander are not necessarily lost

Bill: I, that's the second time I've heard that today. Yes. Yeah.

Marty: No, I think there's the, the, that we could talk more about it another time, but let's, I think that there's definitely some truth to the, every Detour teaches us and, and builds our character.

Bill: Maybe this is a good time to kind of wrap up this episode. There are certainly other, um, topics that we can pull from from this conversation, but we're at the 44 minute mark right now since we.

Marty: to, just to round out where, how, what, where we landed relates to the original question we were saying, you know. Maintaining is a myth. You have to be growing. And now we're saying the detours are all part of the growth,

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: why something new? 'cause you want to expand, and if it turns out to be a detour, well then take what you learned from that and keep trying new things.

Bill: Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know what that reminds me of is, again, back to the book I'm listening to right now, and this is maybe something to really pay attention to. I don't know that it's this way for everyone. You say you love reading. I I love reading too. Most of the reading I do now, I, I listen rather than actually read, uh, books. But, um, something about for me. Uh, reading a book or listening to a book keeps me in the game of personal development.

Marty: Yes.

Bill: Of course, I'm not, I'm not listening to novels. I'm not listening to, you know, mystery theater or anything like that. I'm, I'm really interested in personal development and have been since 1982. And so that's what I'm reading, that's what I'm listening to. So, back to Steve Chandler again. He refers references. He's been talking about suicide in this particular chapter that I'm reading right now. He, uh, he, I, I recommend the book. I, I, I hope that this helps Steve get a few book sales. It's called Reinventing Yourself because it's, it's well written. It's, it's, it's pretty simple, easy to digest stuff. Um, but he tells a story in the book about someone who was just about to take a gun and, and shoot themselves in the head, and, and then at the very last moment. And this guy, whoever he's talking about, apparently ended up being a speaker of some sort of motivational speaker of some sort, and he said, then this voice showed up and said, what are you doing? Um, and, and thank God, thank God, uh, that voice showed up. When we talk about all these detours, this is what made me think of this. When we think about all these detours, if we have very focused and limited thinking, and we trust our and, and we allow ourselves to just fall into the trap of thinking, that's all, that's all there is. To think that the, that the cir the way we are view, viewing the circumstances is the only way to view it. If we fall into that trap, then we can make some really poor decisions. But if we can pause and either pick up a book, call a reliable friend, get yourself back into a 12 step meeting, go to your synagogue, wherever it is that you're supported, wherever what whoever it is that helps you get to that level of personal growth and development that you feel like you've slipped away from, that you haven't maintained. Get yourself plugged into that again, because I think that that can serve as a springboard and give you a different lens and a different perspective from which to, to to start again. Just as you've most recently done here, Marty.

Marty: Well, I just, two things I wanna underscore from what you just said. One is that, you know, if you think your thinking is right, it's not working, then get another angle on your thinking.

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: Ask somebody if it makes sense or, you know, throw it against some other wall and see if it holds water.

Bill: As, by the way Byron and Katie would say this, is that if you're suffering, it's because you're believing a thought that argues with reality. You're believing a lie.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: So let that suffering be your clue. That thinking is lying to you, and go find out what the truth is.

Marty: And the suffering could be as subtle as this just seems like the same old, same old. It could be that subtle it suffering doesn't mean you're bleeding.

Bill: Exactly. No suffering. I would, I would say suffering is anything less than contentment.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Uh, I don't expect that I'm always gonna be in joy, but if I'm, if I'm feeling a little bit less than contentment and, you know, I have, I have moments like that all the time. That's my clue that I need to look at my thinking. There's still parts of me that think that circumstances of my life determine my joy and happiness. Those parts have thoughts that are gonna cause me to suffer. Oh, I don't have enough money. My, my account dropped into this much money and, and now I'm, I should worry. Um, that particular client didn't renew. They're not gonna coach with me anymore.

Marty: And that means blah, blah, blah. Right?

Bill: It's our meaning making. Yes.

Marty: So that's the second piece that I just wanted to underscore about. What you're saying is that, um, the suffering, whether it's boredom or uh, resistance or pain, it's, it is, it's in how you're looking at things. And so you wanna get a new perspective, um, so that you can, you can see things in a new light.

Bill: Not like positive thinking. You're not gonna talk yourself outta reality. That's not the, that's not what you're saying here. This isn't about,

Marty: no.

Bill: this isn't about lying to ourselves, it's it.

Marty: Oh, gosh, no. No. What the point is that you are lying to yourself

Bill: And that's why you're suffering

Marty: and that's why you're suffering. So you gotta find out what's the

Bill: what the truth, right? And align with that. Okay, that's a good place to end right there. Wonderful conversation Marty. We'll see. We'll talk to you again next week. Thank you.

Marty: Thank you.