Recovery and Transformation

Bill: Welcome to another episode of the True You Podcast. My name is Bill Tierney, and this is my co-host Dr. Martin Kettelhut. Marty,

Marty: Hey good afternoon.

Bill: good morning, good afternoon, good evening. Whenever you're listening to this or watching it. We, uh, don't have a guest today. Uh, we've had lots of wonderful guests recently. I think that in, in fact, I would, I wanna say in the last eight weeks, Marty and I have only had a conversation without a guest one time. So if you are someone that's interested in having a, a conversation with us about the true you, we'd love to talk with you. Whether you're a therapist, a counselor, a coach, a practitioner, or just someone who otherwise has an interest in discussing this topic, the true you or anything related to it, we'd love to talk with you. So please reach out to us and look into show notes and there's, you'll find a link to a form there that you can fill out and let us know who you are and what you'd like to talk about. So as usual, Marty and I, uh, begin our conversation prior to every session. And when we have a guest, that conversation goes much differently than, than it did today and than it has for a while. But essentially it's, Hey, what do you wanna talk about? And so we, we both had something in mind. And, uh, Marty, you started first, and then I realized as you started talking about what you'd like to talk about, that it, that there was some relationship between that and what I wanna talk about. So how about you get started?

Marty: Okay, our interest in this, um, podcast. Is in the true you and being our truth in living in a way that is natural, um, is one way that I think about it, right? What your truth like, like the, like the tulip blooms in a, with its nature. And so being the true you is living in accord with your nature, um, one way to think about it. And, um, and I just, I've been noticing how, um, a lot of the expression of our true selves is, is hampered right now because of the, there are a number of factors contributing to it, but the environment of cancellation. Uh, in the media and in social media and in, you know, conversations at the drug store even is, uh, you know, so it, if you say one word that you know, is, is something that fall into other person's camp, they, they're just like, cancel you. I don't wanna hear it. And so they.

Bill: Is that what you mean by cancel? Like in in a conversation, they would cut off the conversation. That means cancel or like you are outta my life. Cancel.

Marty: or you are fired, cancel, or we are no longer going to broadcast your television show that you wrote canceled like that. Yes,

Bill: see. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do And do you think this is new? Do you think that what's happening in the world right now or what's happening in in culture right now that this is a new phenomenon or is this something that's happened in

Marty: It,

Bill: along?

Marty: it. Much more heightened than I remember politicians getting on TV who were in, on, you know, opposite camps, but they could talk about that. You would have talk shows where people actually discussed issues and um, and it was in a. You know, a normal tone of voice and everybody went home having learned something and bettered themselves for the exposure to each other. nowadays it's mu it's, that's so rare. It's much more just, you know, like you're, you're black or you're white with me, you know, and there's no gray And, and the reason I. find that concerning, well, there are several, but with regard to the true use that people can't. Uh, I mean, I feel like I've been slowly canceling or allowing myself to be canceled because I'm, I, well, I don't wanna offend those people, so I won't bring this up, or I know that it's gonna take too much explanation. They're not gonna sit and listen. So I don't bring, so I'm canceling myself because I don't want to say something that's gonna get me in trouble, um, or get me heard, or have me lose my livelihood. Right?

Bill: Yeah, you're canceling yourself. That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. And so tie this in with the true you.

Marty: Well, we lose, we lose track of the true self when we're preoccupied. And this is where it overlaps with the topic that you brought up. Where it over, you know, where like, well. You know, I, I gotta respect their belief. For example, um, that, uh, Hamas' attack on Israel is absolutely, you know, like there's just no response except to. Cancel Hamas. Like that's, that's just the, the logic of it. And so if, if you say, well wait, well, both sides need to look at themselves and like, you get, I've been canceled for that, that very statement that I made on this podcast.

Bill: You've been canceled because you made that statement. Someone called you on it.

Marty: Yes, yes. Two people.

Bill: said that the, that they argued with the point that you're making, which is that maybe there's other options besides going to war in response to that.

Marty: Mm-hmm. Exactly. Mm-hmm.

Bill: it's a hot, hot topic.

Marty: It's a very hard topic and that's just an example. I mean this comes up around, black Lives Matter issues. It comes up around vaccines, like you're just either on one side or the other and there's no, like somebody who's a scientist who's very well versed in vaccines and speaks up to say, wait, you know, the science on that, that study that came out and that influenced all of us getting vaccines during the, there were some problems with it. That person is now canceled. For, uh, being anti-vax, and that's not the case at all. we're, so we're, we're all starting to hold back or to express ourselves through these weird angles. You know, like now you got, you know, um, people who are liberal getting on. conservative radio to talk about it because that's the only place that the, their discrimination of their point of view is gonna be heard and then it's misappropriated. we're not getting to be our truth because of, of, uh, the environment, the belief environment.

Bill: I think of, uh. People like, uh, Pete Actually, I, I can't think of too many more people other than Pete Buttigieg, who courageously it appears to be that it would require courage to courageously, goes into what appears to be the lion's den as a liberal into the conservative talk shows and on, on Fox and, and seems to hold his own quite well in terms of not getting rattled by the extreme. Uh. What appear to be, uh, provocative questions and, and statements by the interviewer, and in fact is able to take those questions and comments and then speak intelligently about them because he's, he's got the facts. He's, he's done and he's quite logical in, in, in acknowledging there's, there's a reason why, why. Uh, there's extreme conservatism and there's extreme liberalism and somehow can stay calm. And what we would say in the IFS circles self-led, apparently he appears to be quite self-led, even in the face of intentional, provocative conflict. Uh, what if we could all do that? What, what if we all were committed to, uh, to being in wonder and curiosity and interest? I. Uh, so that, as you were saying, uh, about before, about that, there used to be talk shows where presidential candidates or political opponents could be on the same and on the same show, the same platform, and have reasonable, uh, and, and respectful conversations where they represented their positions without attacking each other.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: And that, and that doesn't, I haven't seen much of that at all in the last 8, 9, 10 years.

Marty: Exactly right.

Bill: Yeah. Yeah.

Marty: Mm-hmm. So I mean, I live, I love the, the. You know, the feeling of you say, well, what if we had a world where everyone's, walking around with wonder, like, yes, that would be great. Um, of course. And, you know, and that, and I think we're at least people like you and I are working toward that world. Um, but I suspect that, we'll, you know, be. Asically, you know, doing so for a long time to come

Bill: What was that word? What did you just say? Asim. Toxically.

Marty: how to. Yeah, and as tote approaches and approaches and approaches, but never meets the other

Bill: Oh, I see. Yes. I've never heard that word before.

Marty: getting closer, but never actually being the same.

Bill: Right. Yeah. So if you cut this distance in half and then cut that distance in half and cut that distance in half, you're going to, you can always cut it in half and still not arrive.

Marty: That that's true too. Right, exactly. I think that, observation, that hope filled vision brings up for me I, I feel like I, I respond with like, well, okay, but realistically got to deal with the fact that, that we can't just make that happen. You can't, you know, like make everybody wondrous.

Bill: It is not a reality.

Marty: Right.

Bill: Why isn't it? What prevents that? Because I really believe, and I, I'm, I don't need to be right about this. I'd like to be, but I, I don't need to be, uh, that our default state is, is to be loving and generous

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: and in, in that space, in that state of being. Then what I'm suggesting is a possibility would flow naturally

Marty: Yes.

Bill: to be in wonder and to have. Uh, you know, respectful debate. Uh, so that, that those that are engaged in that debate as well as those that listen to it and consider the points that are made, can make decisions from informed information, uh, and data and considerations. Not from being triggered by fear or anger, but from from logical discourse.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Yeah, I believe what would be required for that would be, um, sufficient amounts of, uh, of love and generosity, those default states. So what gets in the way of, can we assume that I'm, that I'm accurate there? That, that our default state is to be loving and generous.

Marty: Well. Yes and no. Um, and here's what I mean. Yes, that's the way we're born, but no, we have this other part of us that develops the small self the personality, the. one who holds beliefs um, and prejudices and, and grudges and has regrets and things that it gets anxious about, like, and that is also a natural part of being human.

Bill: It is based on experience and based on limited access to the truth.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: These conclusions that we draw, that result then in fears and anxieties and, uh, angst and, and beliefs and, and, and values that are, that are misaligned with reality, uh. Those are developed under pressure. Uh, my point is that our default state is an and remains loving and generous, that what you're describing is are, are survival reactions, reactions to threats that become just automatic habits of thinking and beliefs and reactions. Uh. Um, so maybe that's the answer to the question that I was asking is what gets in the way of, of this, uh, respectful discourse, logical, respectful discourse? What gets in the way of being loving and generous is these are these fears and these unresolved things that have happened in the past.

Marty: Exactly. Exactly. And, and that's, that is. I in every, all the major religions, all the major psycho, you know, um, theories of psychology, this is a part of being human. And, and one of the things that interests me about that is that the stronger, see, I think that we live in an environment now where there's a strong tendency to protect that the, the small self um. And it hides a major part of who we also truly are, which is, you know, members of the same group. You know, the sharers of this earth, right? The community. Right that agrees or certain things like traffic rules and, you know, uh, national defense and taking care of the poor and like those kind, you know, educational like institutions, it, those crumble away when there's so much emphasis on survival.

Bill: Yeah. Yeah. Survival of the fittest. Right, so it be becomes individuals rather than a community.

Marty: Right. And that's, and that the, and I think what's not realized is, well, that, that isn't our true self. Like you said, our default actually is to be loving and compassionate, and we're not a, a lot of people are not getting to be their true self because of this heightened, you know, need to survive the cancellation culture.

Bill: Let's look at. What we all know and in the United States anyhow about. And as time goes on, it's maybe a little, uh, harder to recognize and, and re even be reminded of this. But let's take the World Wars and the depression that occurred between, I don't know, when did World War I starts 1917 or something like that. Maybe 19, 20, somewhere in there. And then I believe,

Marty: in the teens, right? Mm-hmm.

Bill: okay, and then the Second World War ended in, I wanna say 1947.

Marty: Five.

Bill: 1945. Okay. And then sandwiched right in between. That is the Great Depression. And so, so if we were to fo, and I'm not saying there's a, a relationship, although I'm sure there is, but I'm not making the point that there's a relationship between those wars. But the people that lived in those times from let's say 1915 to 1945, during that 30 year period of time, especially the adults that lived in that period of time, they formed survival reactions. To surviving the loss of the loved ones that went over, uh, and fought in the war and died. Uh, the, the ongoing threat that we might be that, that we as a country might be bombed and attacked w at which we, in fact were in, at Pearl Harbor, uh, the economy completely demolishing.

Marty: And on nine 11.

Bill: Well again, yeah, we advanced forward now another 65 years. It happens again in nine 11 in that way. But if we focus just on the depression, the, the adults that, that were working to survive and help their families to survive during that time, learned to pinch a penny. They learned to, to be real frugal and and conservative and. There's not too many still alive from that time, but those that I remember from that, that, that survived that great depression, uh, they, they never got past, most of them never got past being penny pinchers about being frugal and being concerned and worried that whatever they might have accumulated might just evaporate overnight,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: is exactly what happened to most people.

Marty: It's interesting, I just, over the weekend I visited the graves of my grandparents, um, on my mom's side and, and my grandfather was a teenager and fought in the trenches in World War I in France. I.

Bill: Wow. Wow. Wow.

Marty: came back, married my grandmother, lived through the depression, had two daughters, um, and the, wife, my grandmother, she worked in as a secretary. They used to call him back then, I guess we'd say admin now at the Naval base. Um, great Lakes Naval Base in just north of Chicago. And my grandfather worked in the grocery store. It was like a mom and pop kind grocery store where you have that sliding, you

Bill: Yeah. Yeah.

Marty: that you climb up to get the canned goods down and

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: them to the people in Glencoe, Illinois. So they were both like middle class, hardworking people and they saved, and saved and saved until they could buy a house on the other side of the tracks where the nice houses were.

Bill: Hmm.

Marty: Right. And um. And, uh, so he, the, you know, I, I knew firsthand people like those you're describing.

Bill: The values and the beliefs and the fears that they developed going through those hardships got passed onto the next generation and the next, and the next and the next, and, and then of course they were manifested in various different ways. Like, maybe, maybe the next generation or the second generation beyond, uh, the scarcity mindset, let's say a worldview. Uh, by the time, from what I understand, by the time I was born, 10 years after World War ii, the United States was top of the world, prosperous, uh, lots of abundance. I mean, things had turned, switched overnight. Uh, and so there was even a greater. Uh, clar clarity about the contrast between that worldview of the, from the depression and the worldview of the victorious United States coming out of World War ii. Uh, and every generation has those beliefs and those values and those fears that they pa and concerns that they pass on to their next generation.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: So now here we are in 2025 and, and we've experienced all of. The generation before us has been passed on and passed on and passed on, and as children, we don't have a discerning muscle until we're what, four or five? At least four or five years old, and it doesn't really fully develop until we're about eight, where we can kind of choose for ourselves, is this valid or is this true? But by then we're already 3-year-old bait.

Marty: We don't even know that we have a self

Bill: That's right.

Marty: Until like five or six.

Bill: We don't know that. You're right. Exactly. We don't see ourselves as a separate self. Is that what you're saying? Yes. Yeah. And then by the time we're seven, eight years old, that now we can begin to discern and choose. But by then, most of our belief systems, at least most of our values, most of our fears have been developed. And they're, they're, they're cooked right in.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: So I think a lot of, a lot of the adolescents, the teenage years, the rebelliousness probably has everything to do with, I'm, you know, I now have a brain where I can discern and choose for myself, and yet I'm still under the thumb and control of the generation that's providing for me. And so now there's this conflict, and, and, and by the time we survive our teenage years and go out into the world trying to make it for ourselves, we have a, this mixed bag. I, I'll speak for myself. I, I had this mixed bag of, boy, I sure don't want the values and beliefs and fears of my parents, and I certainly don't want their habits. I don't wanna live the way that they live, so I'm not going to, but that left this huge void that I had no way to fill. I had no idea. Then how would I live? I'm not gonna live that way. I'm not gonna believe that way. I'm not gonna have those fears. So how will I live? And as it turns out, and it took me years to find this out and to realize it, I took on, I, I did live my life according to those values, those fears, and those beliefs. Until I went through, uh, until I got to the place where I learned how to explore and inquire and choose for myself so that I could let go of those old values and, and have clarity about what I wanted to replace them with.

Marty: I think that. It's, it's very interesting what you're pointing to, and I'm thinking as you're speaking that um, disallowing of gray discussions, but like the cancel culture that makes things black or white relative to any term it might pronounce going to affect, you know, the next couple of generations.

Bill: Sure. Absolutely. Yeah.

Marty: know, we could look at this, the, you know, what caused it to arise. You, you point to like, attitudes around money come from the depression, this cancel culture. we could look at, that's a little a great question to ask, like, where did that come from? But I, I fear that it's going to have us not able to be our true selves, um, for a couple of generations.

Bill: I wanna assert that, that that challenge has always been there. That it, that the, the, the challenge of asserting our true selves, or even knowing what that would look like or feel like to do so faces every generation.

Marty: I agree. I agree. I, but I do think it's particularly heightened right now.

Bill: Yeah, I don't disagree with that. We, we,

Marty: I

Bill: we have such division.

Marty: I saw a guy and a woman. I. Uh, an Arab and a Jew interviewed the same conversation recently and they were both like, yeah, it used to be that, you know, our village was a mix of people and we were all very happy to be mixed. And that's not at all the case right now.

Bill: I'm, I'm curious about what has inspired this interest in cancel cul culture for you, Marty? I.

Marty: Um. Oh, a couple of incidents where I got canceled is part of it. and um, and then also I'm leading the a book club that's reading a book called No Apologies, which is about cancel culture.

Bill: Oh, okay. Tell tell me about, tell me about the book.

Marty: The author Catherine Brodsky, who she's posting on Substack like two or three times a day. By the way, a very prolific writer and very powerful writer. She's, you know, her point of view. I haven't finished the book yet, but it seems to be like the only answer is to keep talking. You know, don't restrict free speech, but keep talking right. And, um, and I think she's right about that, but it raises this question for me like, what about that, that true, that layer of our true self that is compassionate and loving, that can work together on solutions that can find agreements or consensus in order to move forward. um, I, she doesn't address that. And that's my, that's my worry because otherwise we're left in this hobbesian state of everybody's against everybody.

Bill: Right.

Marty: there's no forward motion in that. And I, I'm

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: just finding it hard to see how we're gonna get out of this.

Bill: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Tell me the name of that book again.

Marty: No apologies

Bill: No apologies. Alright, we'll, we'll make sure we have a Catherine Brodsky Brod key. We'll put, we'll put a link for that in, in, uh, show notes. Uh, are you able or willing to talk about the being canceled?

Marty: sure.

Bill: What happened?

Marty: On this, well, one of them was on this, on it might have been the leadership podcast that we used to do,

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: and, um. I don't remember the general topic, but I, what I've been nailed to the wall on by two different people. They like, they found this passage where I was expressing how frustrated I was that I, with these Jewish friends, I was unable to, you know, look at the whole issue. It was just like, no. It's either black or white. You're either for us or against us.

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: And, um, yeah, and my, so my speech on that in, in, in, in social media was, you know, like I was, I was equated with a Jew hater.

Bill: Mm. Mm-hmm. And your point was that maybe there's an, there are other options other than killing people,

Marty: Yes.

Bill: which means that you're a Jew hater.

Marty: That's right. That's the see. And Brodsky gives lots of examples of this. Almost every chapter takes somebody as a focal point who has suffered this very sort of phenomenon. You know, like, um, a scientist, I mentioned this one earlier, saw how we could improve vaccines, but as soon as he spoke up against the current ones, he was labeled an anti-vaxxer and that he is not that at all.

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: And there are millions of stories like this right now,

Bill: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Broad. We're we're just broad assumptions are made to the extreme and, and, yeah. Yeah.

Marty: right? So the truth doesn't come out.

Bill: Well, and I'm imagining how painful that must have been for you to be canceled in that way to the to, and how frustrating it must have been to not be understood and then not be given a chance to. Clarify your intent, what you intended by what you said.

Marty: That's all of that is true. Mm-hmm.

Bill: Yeah. And, and, and so human beings have a tendency to wanna protect themselves once they've been hurt. And I think that that's the point that you, one of the points you've been trying to make here is that the way we protect ourselves is that we don't show up as authentically as we otherwise would when we show up authentically and then get cult canceled because of it.

Marty: Yeah, I mean, Darryl Davis Um, Klansman, he's a black musician who was playing in the south, and, and they hung out with him after they, he played his band, played in their bar and started hanging out with him, and, and he was, he's black, and so he is asking like, what, why, why do you. You know, Lynch people like me, basically.

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: do you do that? And Well, uh, we, I had to join the glam because they were the only people who could insure me. My job. Like, you know, the other administration, the liberals, they, they were gonna cancel my job. I had to decide with, or, well, you know, my dad and my grandfather. Everybody in my family, if I hadn't been a Klansman too, I'd have been kicked out of the family. They all had a story. To tell, you know, why they were a Klansman. Of course, the beauty of the story is that Darrell Davis, through his befriending them and hearing them out and not, and courageously, you know, all let Pete Buttigieg, those guys, a lot of them, they gave up their roads. They said, you know, we're quitting the clan. 'cause now we know, you know, you're, you're a normal human being. And then, and our motivations are no longer valid.

Bill: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I can no longer live in, in this othering belief that now I see as is, is not, is true. It's not valid.

Marty: Right, right. Yeah.

Bill: Well, I'm, I'm sorry that happened to you and, and I, and I know it happens all the time to those that just speak the truth openly. And, um, I noticed that you know, that on certain topics I will get guarded, I will get really guarded, and I'm, I haven't been consciously aware of, uh, my fear of being canceled. My fear goes, is not quite so deep as that my fear is about being criticized

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: and judged, uh, and, and, and misunderstood. And eventually it, it goes all the way down to being canceled. I, I can see that. Yeah. I, I, I can tell you that I speak far more honestly and openly than I ever have in my entire life, and I'll also acknowledge that I'm, I'm somewhat careful, sometimes.

Marty: Somewhat

Bill: Careful.

Marty: careful. Right,

Bill: Yeah. Yeah,

Marty: Yeah. I mean, I, I think that, um. The true self will prevail. And it's, and I'm just noticing not only in these incidences that I've, you know, been in, but you know, friends telling stories, um, and sharing, know, about how. They made one simple statement, um, on, on Facebook and boom, you know, got completely piled on had to cancel their, you know, their own account and go out and come back to somebody else, you know?

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: so yeah, there's a, there are a lot right now of forces making it hard for us. Um, to, to be that, like you said, the, our, the way we're naturally born, our, our default way of being. It.

Bill: Yeah. Yeah. So fear. Fear of being attacked, being hurt, of being misunderstood. Of being blamed, being accused, and, and being canceled. Those are all reasons that, that it's harder to show up as our true, authentic self. And if we are not showing up as our true, authentic self and we're showing up protected, then it's very gonna be very difficult to keep talking when we're in a conversation with someone who's so vehemently poses that your position.

Marty: Yes. Yeah. And makes and makes life difficult for you, you know, if, if not just unpleasant, you know, to be called names. Also difficult to, to maintain your job, you know, and pay, pay your bills and, be yourself.

Bill: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I wanna.

Marty: I, I, I, I think that probably, you know, a combination of, uh, what Brodsky's saying is keep expressing don't hold back. You know, that, that's, that's canceling yourself. at the same time, you know, in touch with that default love that you are and, and fearlessly. Bringing that forward. That's probably the, you know what will change things is the more and more people source themselves in that way.

Bill: And, and what are some ways to source yourself when in the presence of fear, worry, and concern about being canceled? Judge, misunderstood and criticized. What are some ways to source yourself, as you say?

Marty: Well, I'm a big believer in, um, boards.

Bill: Oh yeah. Tell me more.

Marty: I think it makes a really huge difference to have a picture make, you know, make a picture of the future that you're living toward and, and as you're going through your day, live from that place, from that future, from that vision that you have. And I mean, like, actually put it up on the wall, you know, cut out pictures, draw pictures, you know, maybe some words, but mainly. Make a visual display of the future you're living into and live from that future.

Bill: I love that. And some, can I, can I add to that just as an idea here?

Marty: Sure.

Bill: So, so that future, if it's not already being lived, it's gonna come into opposition with an, with a, uh, with a burden, with a burdensome belief system. Worldview as we were talking about before we hit record today, like a worldview that, that, uh, is determined by values, beliefs, fears, uh, and expectations really of, of ourselves and of the world. So if, if, if the vision that you're describing one method of, of having a, like a vision board, thinking of the future that you want. You hold that in front of you every day, that's going to challenge any belief that's living inside that says that that's not possible.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: says there's another way to be that is not that.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: and that's what I was talking about this morning before we hit record was was my recent experience with a client with a unburdening of a legacy burden.

Marty: I see.

Bill: That was just handed, handed off to them by their parents. Uh, you always have to watch out for watch out. People are going to take advantage of you. So that's, that's an example of a belief. You gotta be careful. Don't let people take advantage of you.

Marty: And I think that's, that's one of those beliefs that I think the current gener, the, you know, the, the 20 somethings are gonna pass on to their kids out of their experience of this beginning of the 21st century.

Bill: Yeah, and, and understandably, uh, given everything that we've experienced you, we can draw. We, it's easy to draw. The conclusion is that since everywhere you look, it's difficult to find anybody that you can trust to tell the truth.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Therefore don't trust anybody.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: But is it true that you can't trust anybody?

Marty: No.

Bill: It's not so if you live your life that in, in a fashion where you can't trust anybody, then that make, then, then what makes that makes possible are things like connection, true connection to anybody. If I can't trust anybody, then I can't connect with anybody, and if I can't connect with anybody, then I'm all alone. And if I'm all alone, I rightfully am scared to death

Marty: You

Bill: because we need each other.

Marty: can't.

Bill: Well, we need each other though. And we need each other. I'm all alone. I mean, if, if I absolutely am all alone, I don't know how to generate electricity. So I got, I got no internet. I, I can't talk with you on Zoom. I got no light to, to be able to see my keyboard.

Marty: if you can't trust anybody else, how can you drive down the street?

Bill: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so this is gonna generate all kinds of fears. If I can't trust anybody, then is somebody gonna break into my house? Is somebody gonna take advantage of me? It is ev is it, is this deal that's being offered? Actually what's gonna happen? You know, is this food that I'm about to eat actually been procured in such a way that it, that I say it's safe to eat? So. Very, very quickly and very easily. These, these, these kinds of beliefs, you can't trust anybody, you know, which is a, a belief that's passed on to a child in, in hopes that you're gonna be able to, uh, have that child, be careful and cautious in, in a dangerous world turns into a disabling, paralyzing belief as an adult. And so that's, that's a great example of a legacy burden. And, and if, and if, if we can find ourselves into a position or find a, the, a way to be supported in this. What there is to do with this, in addition to that vision board of yours that you're talking about, I love those as well, is to have a logical exploration inventory taking of, of what are my beliefs, what are my values? What are the beliefs, the values, and the fears that are running my life? I. What are, what are these values, beliefs, and, and, and, and fears that I, that I bow down to and, and make sure that I accommodate in my life. Uh, and then go down the list and, and look at each and every one of 'em. Look at where they started and why it made sense to begin to have those beliefs in the first place. And now compare that to today and ask yourself how valid and true is it now?

Marty: How do you get started on this? This sounds like an amazingly valuable exercise, I'm imagining myself down and going, I don't know those, those are like so basic, those beliefs in me. can't even name them. How do you, how do you

Bill: Well,

Marty: that?

Bill: well, one way to do it would be to have a conversation with someone who could be more objective and listen as you talk

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: and then point and reflect back to you. This is what I'm hearing.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: And, uh, you know, people like you and I listen for this all the time.

Marty: Right, right.

Bill: so, so with my clients, if a client comes to me and says, uh, you know, my life's not working, and I, I suspect whether they believe this, whether they suspect this or not, I suspect that maybe the reason it's not working is because the beliefs, values, and fears that, that are running my life are no longer valid. Whether they know that or see that or not, I, part of my job is to help them to see that. If your life's not working, it's probably because your values, your, your, your worldview is not, is no longer valid,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: it ever was. And, and so if they're, if they're in a place where they're ready to take that on, and it's a scary conversation to have because if what I believe to be true, I find out is not, then what in the world am I gonna do about, you know, what is true then? What is valid? What, where do I stand?

Marty: Uhhuh

Bill: It's a scary place. That's why it's so beautiful to bring in that vision at the very same time. And there's a question that comes out of the work of Byron Katie, who would I be without this thought? Let's expand that. Who would I be without this fear? Who would I be without this belief system?

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: Who would I be without, without this value? And, and if, if, and, and the other side of that question is, who am I with this value? Who am I with this belief? Who am I with these fears

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: All of that will really begin to lay out on the table, this is what I'm working with,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: given, given these fears, beliefs, and values, this is what I'm working with. This is who I am Now, can I imagine who I'd be without them? Maybe I'd have that joy. Maybe I'd have that love. Maybe I'd have that generosity. Maybe I'd be connected again. Maybe I'd be enthused about life again.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: That on a vision board, very specifically reflecting what would make me feel joyous, loving, generous, what would that look like and who would I be doing that with?

Marty: It makes me think that part of the, if you know, if, if there's someone listening who wants to get started on this, even before they call us to be the listener, you know, the observer or the witness of that process, you might start to look at where. You experience, um, like tension or the opposite? Like, oh, I really like being around that group of guys. Why? Because they all believe ba blah ba, right? Or, it's always hard for me to be with these people or to do this activity. Why? Because it's up against my belief that ba, ba, ba. So you might look, you know, where you experiencing, you know, that kind of tension in life, or the opposite, you know, relief. And what is the belief? What is the belief there that you're living by?

Bill: Another word to use as you're looking would be, what are the rules that are running my life? What rules am I living by? Those rules will be backed up by a fear of value or a belief. Some of those, by the way, fear, but value belief sometimes that those are just different descriptions of the very same idea. I'm not enough, let's just go with that one. I'm not enough is actually a belief I'm not enough, is also a fear. I'm not enough, is also a value and therefore I'm not enough as a rule to live by. How's and, and, and if I'm. So, if I'm not happy with my life and I believe I'm not enough. That's a great place to start right there. Who would I be with? Who am I with this belief I'm not enough? What does my life look like? How do I suffer believing this? And then who would I be without the thoughts? Who would I be if I didn't believe that I was enough? What if I, what if I actually just by default knew that I was enough rather than believing that I'm not?

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: What if I wasn't suffering all the time? Then what might life look like? The combination of those two, I. Perspectives, I guess, brought together, puts you right in the middle of the turbulence of a wild river that you're gonna have to ride for a little while to get it all worked out.

Marty: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I recognize as you're talking that you know, I have beliefs like injustice. I.

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: And that it'll prevail. That brings up this conversation today in me because I see that not happening right now and you know, so I, I, I, but you know, I come out of that with that recognition going, okay, then what there is to do is keep speaking justice, you know?

Bill: By the way, what is the belief about justice? So there's, so you say you believe injustice. What? What does that mean? You believe that justice is possible. You believe that? Okay.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: and do you also have an opposing belief that justice is not happening right now?

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: So it's ha it's possible and it's not happening right now. There's, that creates that tension inside. Yeah.

Marty: Exactly.

Bill: That probably results in a motivation to speak about it, even if somebody's gonna cancel you for it.

Marty: Hence this podcast, this episode. Yes, exactly.

Bill: Okay.

Marty: There are other ones too, like, you know, I believe. Uh, many people that I know would say this actually, but I believe that, uh, you know, religion is a moderating force in society now. Uh, most of the people I know would go, religion is just, it's the problem. That's what's in the way. But I, I think that religion gives us social. Uh, it fills social needs. It gives us a higher place to look for answers to these more fundamental questions that were survival questions, right? Um, and, and, and also it gives us a, a hopeful. You know, way to, to come at things. So I, I believe in the importance of religion. I'm not promoting any particular religion, and I'm definitely not promoting religion that makes people more narrow minded. But I think it has these values.

Bill: If, if what you be mean by religion, ideally is, uh, a way to organize around higher ideals, then I'm right there with you.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: But if, if that way to organize around high, higher ideals now becomes. Like cultish, you must believe as I believe now we got a problem now. It's no longer, it's no longer serving us.

Marty: Exactly. Exactly.

Bill: be a, it's gotta be. I, I, I think, uh, uh, if, if it's gonna be religion, if it's, if it's an organization around higher ideals, I'd like to be part of an organization around higher ideals where I get to decide what those higher ideals are rather than to have them imposed upon me because that's what I'm recovering from now.

Marty: and and mine is somewhere, it's, it's neither of those, it's not imposed upon me. It's not like me coming up with them. It's, it's something else. It's, um, it's more of a, like the work of IFS, which is getting in touch with a truth that we share.

Bill: Yeah. Discovering and recognizing what's true. Yeah. I don't, I don't think that I probably have it in me to come up with these ideals on my own, but I certainly know, know 'em when I see 'em.

Marty: Some people do. You know, our current president thinks he, you know, he can just make up ideals on his own for us. Like he really believes that.

Bill: I, he, he apparently does. Yeah. Yeah. On that note, we are about to get canceled, so we, let's go ahead and wrap. We we're out of time. I need to get ready for my men's group

Marty: Thank

Bill: and, uh.

Marty: me and, uh, I, I hope that the discussion of this is useful to our listeners.

Bill: I hope so too. I've enjoyed it. Uh, and those that enjoyed the episode, we'll continue to listen most likely. And those that didn't, we'll move on to something else. And isn't it great we get to choose. Alright, Marty, great to talk to you. Talk to you next week. Bye.