Bill: Well, hello everyone and welcome to another episode of the True You Podcast. I'm Bill Tierney, a compassionate results coach, and I certified IFS practitioner. And my co-host is Dr. Martin Kettelhut Marty's an author and an executive coach. I'd like to introduce our two guests today, Alex and Pau. And, uh, to do, so I'm going to, I'm gonna tell you some things about each of them. We'll start with Pau. Uh, Pau, would you pronounce your last name for me? Is it Nar

Pau: Um, it's nar. I can't even pronounce my surname properly 'cause I can't roll my Rs, but it's something like VO.

Bill: vo. And, and, well, you said that, that you're from, where are you from originally?

Pau: I was born in Poland and uh, I lived in London for half of my life. So I'm also a, an English British citizen. And um, right now I live in Italy.

Bill: And you are a certified level three IFS practitioner,

Pau: is correct.

Bill: and you mix and you mix coaching and trauma work. I'm gonna make myself a note.

Pau: I am Sorry, what did you say, bill? Just now

Bill: I'm

Pau: I, it's a bit,

Bill: to ask you more about that, but what were you gonna say?

Pau: I would say that I work with IFS and my, my part of my background is coaching, uh, nonviolent communication. And also I spent a bunch of time doing, uh, ethnographic research and kind of organizational stuff, um, in. Um, yeah, and all kinds of whether startups or, uh, government in, in the uk. So that's my background and right now I'm heading back to school actually to become a licensed psychotherapist, so,

Bill: Nice. You also say in your bio that, uh, you have a background in anthropology.

Pau: correct.

Bill: I'm not even sure how to pronounce this. Is, is it ethno ethnography. F. F,

Pau: Yeah.

Bill: yeah. What does that mean?

Pau: It's basically doing research by talking to people and by being in environments to learn about them. So not just kind of reading, but being out there, getting out of the building to understand reality and to understand people.

Bill: That's a good fit for IFS. Huh.

Pau: I would say so.

Bill: And you mentioned already nonviolent communication.

Pau: Yeah. And uh, the last drop that I'll add to the last thing is that I think all of the, one of the things that I see kind of in between all of those things is that I'm very, I'm a fan of curiosity. I'm a really curious creature. So that, that brought me, uh, into a lot of those environments. And yes, um, nonviolent communication was and is, uh, a part of my life and it's actually how I discovered internal family systems. So.

Bill: Mm, mm-hmm. Yes. Core, personal and professional research areas include relationships, sexuality, psychedelic assisted therapy, and, and you now it, when you filled out this bio, you said you were considering going back to school, but now you are, you are going

Pau: Well

Bill: to become a licensed therapist.

Pau: correct. Yeah, I just accepted the offer from the university in London, so

Bill: Congratulations.

Pau: you.

Bill: Thanks for joining us and I'm gonna introduce Alex now. Uh,

Alex: Hello.

Bill: now Pal's partner Alex. Alex, uh, short for Alessandro Am I saying it right? Pori, you do, I trail the RI. Okay. Uh, Alex believes that, tell me about yourself and your bio is the fastest route to emptying your mind, potentially enlightenment. He has been a lead technologist specializing in ai, a movement teacher organized meditation retreats, taught workshops. He also offers IFS based sessions focusing either in life satisfaction or deeper blockages. He's not sure what to do as a grownup, but this sounds good so far. Let me just, let me just say one more, one or two more things and then, and then, uh. Marty, I wanna see if you have any burning questions uh, an idea of how you'd like to get started in this conversation. First, I just wanna say how much I love both of you. I, I, I, I don't remember just exactly, maybe it was through the unconference that I first was introduced to you I'm, and I'm gonna wanna make sure that we take some time to talk about that by the end of the conversation today. What the parts work on conference is, maybe some history about that. But I was, um, it came across my feed and I responded and did the presentation and then actually sat in on a few sessions and love the unconference. I think I've done four of 'em with you now. uh, Since then we've been. Oh, it's been great to be part of it. And then, uh, we, you invited me to be in a consultation group with Bob Falconer, which a lot of people who a lot of people are very familiar with and it's just been great and I look forward to, ongoing future connection with you. So welcome to the podcast.

Alex: Thank you.

Pau: To be here on.

Bill: Where do we wanna jump in, Marty?

Marty: Well, we've introduced them separately. Maybe we should have them introduce how they became one, how they became together. Um. Let's ask it through the true You. So what is it that she brings out in the True You and you, Alex, and vice versa? What does he bring out about the True You, pal?

Pau: Who gets to start

Alex: I'm the, I'm the diesel user, so if you want to start as the more fast action part of the partnership. Yeah.

Pau: Um, I would say, so the question is, what is that Alex brings out in me that is also true. Me. Is that right?

Marty: And how did you meet exactly? Mm-hmm.

Pau: We met dancing. Dancing is a, is a very, very precious thing to both of us actually. And we both, uh, really adore this, uh, not, I mean, all kinds of dance, but particularly, uh, improv contact improv and just, you know, letting loose on the dance floor, not so much structured dances. And, uh, I would say that. The parts of me are the me that gets encouraged very much through. And thanks to Alex is, uh, is really, uh, boldness and, uh, and really this, uh, I wanna say, um, ferocious, uh, level of expression and, uh, directness. In a way, we spend a decent amount of communicating and we really, I think both ways encourage each other to be really straight, to be really clear, uh, to be explicit. Uh, so he helps me grow in that way. Um, and there's much, much else around that. Um, and else, but that's where I will pause myself for now.

Marty: That's beautiful. That is, I mean, to have somebody who is, is constantly challenging you to be true. That's awesome. That's great.

Alex: Yeah. Can I jump in? Uh,

Marty: Please.

Alex: we, we met dancing and I mean, I noticed this. Interesting creature dancing on the dance floor and. Try to dance with her, then she flattered away, then come back, flattered away, come back. uh, I really liked her. And it took us from that 0.7 years to get together because there was some misunderstandings in the being straight. It is like, uh, I like you. Oh, what? No, run away. Or, I thought that wasn't clear enough. Like, what, what do you mean? Uh, so in a way it's, um, luckily we found each other with some annoyance of like, we could have done it earlier. So that, uh, is here now. Uh, and, uh, I think what was, I mean, what's like there is this constant, uh, this would be really, I mean, power has an amazing antenna if I'm not really there, or, uh, if, uh, if there is something not flowing and is, uh, and then the question sometimes is it, is it me or is it you? So, okay, there is something, there is a disturbance in the force. There is something not flowing. of us will feel it. And, and uh, sometime we do, we will do a U-turn first. Like, what have I done? What have I done wrong? Or is it, oh, it just say you like sleep, or do you need food? Or sometime or something happen. Have I done something? But there is this constant path of rechecking and being clear in the communication or not needing to communicate. And some time we spent four hours checking in. How did we still manage to misunderstand each other? So now, and now we know, and now we're like, ah, you meant that? Oh yeah, no, I, but I heard this thing. So that brings this constant, yeah. Being, up, being, uh, being clear, understanding other person and, um, also, yeah, trying to learn away just to take space while offering space. So not, uh, neither shrinking, not

Marty: Did you already have IFS in common when you met, or did that come later?

Pau: Well, so basically when we met, um, it's many, many years ago, but uh, when we reconnected, uh, actually it was during COVID and Alex um, sent me a message on Facebook and, um, he was, uh. He was, I think it was him that was saying, Hey, have you heard about this thing called IFS? And I had just completed my level three, so I was like, yeah, just, just a little bit.

Alex: I am really, I was at there my first, I dunno, six months of IFS. So I was doing it on everything and everyone and telling about it to everyone and the newcomer, this is amazing. really happy. I didn't even explain IFS to Wow. It's like, oh, have you heard of this? Because usually the thing like, have you heard this? Like, no. Okay, lemme tell you about this amazing thing. And it's like talking to imaginary friends for. In inner healing and self development is great. And then like, oh yeah, I just finished this. Super level. Like, okay, tell me more about IFS event. You tell me, and I was the bullet of saying something silly. But yeah, so the the time we really managed to get together and build a relationship we had by then I in common, even if she has more, much more ahead than me.

Marty: I mean, it's, I don't know many couples that have such a powerful tool that they can use to, to find their own true selves and this true self of the relationship as well. Um, so you said that curiosity is a, a major guiding force for you, um, Pau and um. I'm, but,

Pau: Also Alex,

Marty: and it says, it sounds like there's more to say about what you're curious about. It's not, you're not curious about engineering, it's about people. Something about people.

Pau: um, I mean, I, I would say that absolutely people. But I, I'm, I'm a little bit curious about many things including engineering,

Marty: Oh.

Pau: including ai, including path, including, uh. Like how, um, I dunno. Recently, like how, how, you know, I live, we, we live in a forest, so there's a lot of curiosity about like, how, how do things grow? How does, how do, how do you, how do you deal with, um. Spiders colonizing your house, or how do you like safely descend yourself into the underbelly of a house that is from probably 1700. Um, because there's a whole chamber underneath our building that no one, not one of us at least, has gone through. So, you know, there's a lot of curiosities and the curiosity has not killed the cat. Um, so I continue to be curious. Um, but yes, people, people are, I would say at the heart of it, not the heart of it. And, you know, it's, it's, it's a curiosity that leads me both inside and outside I find. So staying with it and yeah, finding out.

Marty: I know that curiosity is one of the, the, the qualities of self. I'm, I'm not IFS trained, but I, I'm IFS, curious

Pau: Right.

Marty: word. would you say is the. Uh, quality of self that guides Alex.

Pau: I would say something also between curiosity, compassion. Um,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Pau: I say too,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Pau: yeah,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Pau: I wonder how thats.

Alex: Yeah, I would say, I mean, curiosity is one of my main driving force. it used to be, I mean, I became an engineer because initially it was more about things and objects, and I became more about people. I. End in your life and whatever. So for me, there is a moment when I used to be really shy that I realized that the, the best way to approach people was not wanting something from there. But if I, if I'm under like, Hey human, how do you do this thing about called being a human? How does it work for you? And that's how also I sat to organize. I used to organize events about how to, to do relationship and IFS and everything. So if you approach things with curiosity, at the very worst you learn something. If you approach challenge with curiosity, if you succeed, great. If not, you have something that you learn. So curiosity for me is just a driving force. And when, when there's no curiosity, when I contract and tunnel vision, and it's like, no, I just want to get this done. And that's sometime a problem. And, uh, so yeah, I mean, the three thing I was thinking about p was curiosity, compassion, and courage. And probably they fit. I mean, I, I'm flattered to hear courage. Uh, probably. From the inside, I would say more like recklessness, but yes, uh, possibly uh, so those are also, I mean, I'm, I don't remember all of them, so yeah, they fit, calm is a very much of an acquired skill for me. so, um, confidence

Bill: missed that. What did, what did you just say? Say that again,

Alex: one of the eight CI don't remember always all of them. I'm thinking that I like when I'm calm, but for sure it's an acquired skill. Uh, it's, and uh, while yeah, being curious is for sure very natural. Compassion has been a very good in my life.

Bill: I am, I'm surprised to not hear playful for Alex. I see a lot of that. I see you being really playful, Alex.

Alex: not one of the hc. Right. For I love being playful. Uh, it's one of the

Bill: It is one of the five Ps.

Alex: I know. Yeah. For,

Bill: Yeah.

Alex: me, being playful, I mean, that's part of Yeah. Yeah. Uh, when I'm, when I get something I need, I, it, it becomes playful. So for sure there is that also PI mean, there is a lot of play in our, in our relationship, in our life. I mean, uh, we, every now and then, we just look like. That was weird. Like yeah, our life is is very fairly normal. Like completely. Absolutely. Like, um, yeah.

Bill: I do. I see a lot of playfulness between the two of you.

Pau: I also find if you, if you're, if you're aiming for the, for the five Ps, uh, which I can't all name either, but for me, there's also the meaning of persistence. Actually persistence is something that really, uh, can hold very strongly. I think, uh, especially when it comes to things that I think are aligned, uh, whether it's for me or for Alex or for us. We can be very persistent about, um, doing or being in certain things. I know that sounds vague, but it's true.

Marty: Which, which certain things

Pau: Well, persistence. Um. Uh, persistence of sticking with certain systems like IFS for instance, to do the work and persistence of staying with, for instance, a client, uh, persistence of, I quote unquote, battering the other in order to, uh, to find out, um, the persistence of, uh, going inside and facing things that don't belong or that are needing attention. So,

Bill: I have some curiosity about. Now this is back to your relationship and something that Alex said, uh, and I, I wrote down some notes. My words for what I heard was that there's disconnection disturbance in the force, as Alex said, misunderstandings, and of course the, the word ruptures is a word that we, we use a lot, rupture and repair.

Pau: Mm-hmm.

Bill: I'd, I'd love to hear how that goes between the two of you and, and especially when you began to merge together as a, as a couple and began to see yourself in that way. Uh, how did you go about navigating these misunderstandings, these disturbances in the force, and how has that developed over time?

Pau: Oh, that's a huge topic, huh?

Alex: Okay. I mean, one of the develop, I mean, I consider myself a relationship geek. I had this, event called relationship cookbook where people would meet and share relationship techniques. I collected a bunch in the years, and I know that techniques make it everything, but techniques can help. So we, from the beginning, we, and I am aware that. Uh, if you allow, if you wait until there is a misunderstanding that needs to be really voiced, it grows, at least for me, it grows until you need to explode and it will poison something. Uh, power this metaphor of the basket that builds between people. And so one thing that we tend to have is that we have at least a daily check-in. Often more than one daily. But, uh, is a daily check-in, a longer weekly check-in. In which for me, it started mostly as, uh, asking anything that should have been said, but it wasn't said in the moment. any, any disconnection? Um, a question I used to have, it doesn't really work with power, but was this, like, is anything that you would've done different without me? Would that have been better? Were there any moment in which like, ah, being together is a burden? Um, and just we sharing it and offering like, okay, bring it up. I mean, anything that has been, now we will ask each other, there was any part, anything that stayed in the pocket that should have taken out and said, and, um, and that's one way, and in growing, it still ended up that. It still would still accumulate because you keep on asking and you think you're saying everything and you're like that there was this little thing that you haven't said then yeah, sharing. And so the, for me, the disturbance in the force is more than rupture. Just there is a way in which you are really open-hearted and really playful and everything flows well. And then there is moment where something gets said just like a tiny bit and then it lands bit contracted and it doesn't. digest in the moment because I shouldn't make a big fuss of it. Or maybe, maybe what, or we are busy or we, we cannot open one hour of processing in this moment. And then they accumulate. So sometime it happens that by now, after a few years, they get adjusted very quickly and uh, mostly they came up as soon as possible. But it has been a process. So initially there was a lot of. We check in, we digest, we use tools, we, we use vision boards and anything that it there or what did you mean with that? Or what does this work? And now it's very much about noticing, oh, there, there is something different in the wind. You, is it here? Is there, but I don't think we had something I would call a rupture. I say one year, but maybe I'm, it's too much. But a while, uh, I give it back to you and not surprise me with like.

Pau: I mean, just to add, um, we also have, uh, every four to six weeks, like a full day of really leaning into, okay, what are, what, what are. Are there any topics? Are there any, any things like, like one, one thing that, um, I think it's from a book that, um, that Alex introduced to me that talked about this thing withholds. Like what are the things that we withhold from each other and how come what's underneath? And you know, there is this dance of like, um, how much needs to be shared. And when and all of that. But in the, in the four to six weeks, full day meetings, we, we look for what are the things that we need to work on? What are the things that we need to, uh, hear, to witness, to work through, to talk about again, if there are any things that we need to talk about again. So,

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Pau: no. Does that. Sometimes there is nothing and that's great.

Bill: Yeah.

Marty: I love I love that. Um, I was trained in a called a spiral method. You can look it up online. It's for getting groups to gel, to be, you know, to get related. And, um, you can use it with corporate teams or you can use it with strangers who've just come together for the first time. And there, there are three phases. You play these simple games, like finish the sentence and everybody finished it, the same sentence, and you learn something about where their mind is at, how they feel. And then there's the third, the third round of these games is about withhold. And, um, it very, and uh, like it really opened me up as a. I come from the Midwest and we, Midwesterners are famous for withholding everything, you know, just space. You know, say good, good morning, good to see you. Keep it on the up and up and withhold everything else, right? And so for me to play with I, I found that. One of the most surprising things to me was this, I withhold a lot of love. Like I'm, there's so many times when I really appreciate somebody or I, or there's some movement that they made that really, ah, it was beautiful. So many things that I just. Keep stuffing those away. So when, when I get to the withhold round, I'm often saying, you know, I just wanted to say how, how beautiful I think it is that you, you know, walked through that way. Or how wonderful it was that you put it, those words

Pau: Yeah.

Marty: A lot. A lot of what I found I was withholding was love

Pau: Acknowledgements are underrated.

Marty: Yes,

Alex: My metaphor, it still clogs the tubes. I mean, not, not sharing resentment will clog the communication, but also, oh, that was beautiful, or, thank you, or I noticed that beautiful thing, or that made me happy. Not saying it shrinks something a little bit, uh, side

Pau: Aliveness.

Alex: and I think.

Marty: And now this is more I was, I noticed that I was withholding things that I didn't want to be responsible for. You know, like I withheld the fact that you, you irritated me when you said that, know? 'cause now I have to, I have to go inside and look at why did that irritate me? What's going on with me? That, that was an irritation. This man's just being himself and I'm the one. So that was, there are a whole bunch of things that I was withholding because I didn't take, wanna take responsibility for them.

Pau: Makes sense.

Marty: Yeah. So I think withholds is a very, it's a very good practice, you know, to be constantly looking. What else, what else is still sticking to my ribs That I just need to out there and, and clean up?

Pau: Yeah, I really like what you said there, Marty. For me, the, the, the U-turn, like I, I have parts for of me that, for instance, will tend to over U-turn. And what I mean by that is like I. I shouldn't be blaming. I shouldn't be petty. I shouldn't have any issues with what that person is doing. Let me go inside. It must be something inside that I need to resolve. No, it doesn't work like that. Or at least it's not the only way that things work. Okay? This tool is valuable, but it's not the only thing that that should be there.

Alex: sometimes it's us, but for, for me, and, and the game is in two people. Like we, we want to. Share and we want to enable the other person to share as much as possible. So like in the book where I discover the technique for the withholds would be that for 15 minutes nothing happens. So like you Martin, not notice that there is this difficulty in being responsible. So, hey, there's something I haven't told you. Would you be willing to listen? Like, okay, and we receive it. And then for the 50 minutes, I don't have to say, oh, now you'll fix it or now you will reply for now, no. Then later maybe like about that. But so en encourage, like, and, or I can think so like, okay, what, what, what's there Now we'll discuss it. And one question that also sometime came out between at least us is, okay, I himself enough or able to listen. Because when one person is activated , like, okay, no, I, what's wrong? I want, I really want to listen. Like, and they tell you and then you start being defensive and you did this like. Okay. Maybe that wasn't optimal, so Okay. Able to actually listen what's happening to you because if not, I'll take a walk, I'll, I'll do something. And one of the two needs to be able to listen to the other, because if not, both people try to be right and it doesn't, doesn't work. Because as long as we want win the conversation instead of meeting each other. So this, this making it easy for the other person to show themself and, and that sometimes means. I have to do my inner work because if I ask, show yourself good, and now I punch you, it doesn't work right.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Bill: I wanna share a little bit if I could, uh, as I'm listening to this conversation, I love it. I love, love, love what we're talking about, and there's so much has been said that I, that I just really have appreciated. And I'm thinking about what did I learn and when did I learn it in terms of how to have a healthy with another human being, especially with a woman. And, uh, well, it certainly didn't happen growing up. My folks did not model connection. They modeled disconnection. Uh, yes. And uh, and, and I really did think that with so much of what they modeled, as long as I didn't do what they did, then I was gonna have a happy life. But. Yeah, but in the, in the absence of, you know, so, so I did, I mean, I tried real hard to avoid being who they were being and doing what they were doing, and yet I found this, this empty void and I, I, to be at a complete loss, I, I didn't, uh, I didn't react and respond and act upon my attraction my very first girlfriend until I was 19 years old. And I was tongue tied. I didn't know how to be in communication with her. I loved her. I'm almost immediately, and I felt this, this powerful, powerful, uh, experience. I had this powerful emotional experience and it just was practically overwhelming what I felt for her.

Pau: Wow.

Bill: I found that I didn't have the vocabulary. I had none of the strategies, none of the skills. I had no idea how to actually communicate in a way that was connecting. we ended up getting married, having a couple of kids together after we'd been together for 15 years. She died of a brain tumor and it was, the relationship itself was just basically a disaster because she didn't know how to communicate either. She's someone who had been, uh, sex sexually abused by her father. For years hadn't had the healing that she needed, hadn't had the modeling that she needed, also for how to be connected in a relationship. by the time she died of her brain tumor, uh, the relationship had all but died by then before, before she was even diagnosed with a brain tumor. I've remarried a couple of years later and, and, and had a, an experience. Just as extreme, but kind of in opposite roles, uh, where she had been the one withdrawing before in my first marriage, I was the one that now that was withdrawing because I married somebody that was very aggressive, very aggressively disconnecting, and we tolerated each other without actually killing each other for about eight and a half years. Uh, before I was afraid that that was gonna happen, that I might wanna kill her. I, I wanted to kill her, that I might actually act on it. I left and I was so scared. I was so broken, uh, in, in, in terms of relationships and that I couldn't trust myself, that, that if that attraction happened again, that I'd find myself in another relationship and not know how to do it. I made a commitment to stay outta relationships and to work on myself until I become the man that I could be, to be in a healthy relationship. I pulled that off. I did that and I'm now married and have been, will have been married for 12 years this summer. But what I found in this new marriage was that even though I'd emptied myself out of a lot of the pain and, and trauma and healed, had healed a lot of stuff even before IFS, I still didn't have the vernacular, I didn't have the vocabulary. I didn't have the skills because until you're in a relationship. you get to, and, and you find that, oh, here's, here's a time that I, I could really be practicing, practicing some skills. And I'd read books. Uh, I thought I'd, I would know how to do it, but I didn't. And I messed up. I became really My force was very disturbed very often,

Pau: Wow.

Bill: I knew it was me. Kinda like what you're saying, that I, I would, I would go to the uh, the U-turn. And own it. But that wasn't enough really. There was, there needed to be more than that. So I'm wondering if we can move for the next few minutes at, at least into what happens when, when in the moment when there's a disturbance in the force. What do you do as a couple? And I, I'm happy to share mine, mine as well, but my, our listeners have probably heard enough. I'd love to hear from you two. What, what happens in real time when there's a disturbance in the force that that works and what happens that doesn't.

Pau: Thank you for sharing that. Well, there's a few things that can happen. What happens in those moments? I mean, uh, I think both of us , but I, what I hear at least is Alex sometimes says things like, did I do something wrong? Or, uh, is there anything needed? I think we both use that. Anything needed or wanted around what happened. Is there anything else? And I mean, a lot of it comes through also in the nighttime check-in that we have around any incomplete material from the day. But in the moment, in the moment. Um, sometimes I think we can ask for a timeout. Alex, you wanna jump in because

Alex: Yeah, I was thinking about the moment before because. There is a moment where we, I notice or one of us notices that we're

Pau: mm-hmm.

Alex: not in a

Pau: No.

Alex: uh, technique way

Pau: will acknowledge this isn't working or something like that.

Alex: like it feels like we repeat the same thing and, and one person gets defensive and the person gets more aggressive or testy, or one person is. In IFS term in the moment, there is, I mean, while it's happening, we're too blended to contract it to tunnel visioning. Not enough in self, uh, notice. And so the moment one of us notices, oh, this is not working, uh, in the best of way, like if you are very, like, if one of us, oh, it's not working, but I am quite grounded, then there is like, okay, hey, what have you heard? Do you need, do you need the any ev done something wrong? it

Pau: Mm-hmm.

Alex: already been inspiring a bit and we are actually getting into, I'm trying, I keep on pushing and I feel like, why not me? then what I do, okay, I stop this direction. Uh, I want have a fight and I don't want to have a fight. So in this moment, I don't have. Problem solve The moment I realized, okay, I feel that this becoming a fight , we stop. but yeah. So in the moment there is noticing that somehow instead of cooperating, it's a little bit against the other, why don't you get me what from some level of pushing.

Marty: Mm-hmm.

Pau: and to add, I think something that happens and that's kind of before and at the beginning. And then I think sometimes what happens is we can also sometimes use, you know, saying back what the other person said to make sure that we are trying even. Through these like very clunky tools. So did you say this and this and this? This is what I heard. Is it what you meant? And so forth. And through the tools, I think of empathy. Very often, ironically, what happens is that we start to advocate for the other side. Oh no. Oh, it so much makes sense. I was wrong. And

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Pau: funny dance kind of once, once the thread of understanding or empathy lands once we're, once I am able to see his side or to. Reach into previously completely blindsided or invisible knowledge of the Alex that I know and love There is this. Oh yeah, I know that actually in these moments he can feel like that. Oh, did you feel like that when I said that? Um, oh, okay. That makes sense. 'cause I know you and I know it's hard for you when I do that or.

Alex: It never happened before with anyone else, that the moment we escalate that we're not activated anymore because again, that happens. We wish it never happen. And good luck, is we, we we start changing roles and it was like, oh no, you were right. I was the wrong one. No, no, no, no. It's not true. No, I was more wrong in. And it's like, okay, well at this, at this point, no one is trying to be right. Like, okay. And that, that's great. That becomes funny. And sometimes we'll just give a silly name to the kind of, drama that we had and reuse it when there is a similar kind of conflict. and I wanted to put a plus one for me for what Bill you were saying, because. Years ago when I did enough inner work, pre IFS was mostly Buddhist related. The meditation to a level of I'm good with myself, I'm not suffering constantly. I can be good, I'm okay now I'm ready to be gaining relationship. 'cause I took a several years break where term things but not, uh, and the idea was really okay. The next challenge is being relationship and. that's, I mean, it's a cost. You can think, I mean, in a relationship it goes from, oh, I'm grounded. Everything goes, and there is a misunderstanding. I, it just goes so fast. Wait, we were doing well, half an hour. We were great. What happened? And, and the good thing about that, we, we managed not to hold grudges. So, uh, half an hour later, one hour later, when the. When the activation goes away, we're good again or even less. And the more we are aware that okay, the conflict doesn't mean that the day is ruined, the week is ruined, the weekend is ruined. Like, okay, we had a misunderstanding. Oh, we know this. Okay, now we name it. Now we, we, we, we stay with that and maybe five minute, half an hour later, one hour later, we'll be laughing about that and everything is good again. So this trust that, oh, I don't have to be perfect because I'm not. But oh, we can repair and the repair is as good as new or even better. Uh, we really like those caps that.

Bill: Yeah. Yeah.

Marty: Is, is there, I'm curious, is there a. A explicitly stated context to get back to, or is it always like, you, you, is there a commitment that that gets invoked? Like, Hey, we said we were going to be this and now we're not doing that, and then you get back to that place? Or is it always evolving just from, high tension to low? Uh, I'm not sure clear about what you mean in terms of the explicit commitment. Well, for me it's very much just that, you know, we, we dance with what needs to be danced with. Normally we manage to escalate the same day, otherwise it's something that we work through on the weekend. Mm-hmm. Um, if it's deeper.

Marty: Uh, I, I guess I'm just, um, curious if there's a Oh. A way, you know that okay. That's been worked through. We're back to, or we're at, we've moved ahead to this, this other state, and we, it's palpable. Now we're, now we're complete again. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I mean, there are signs that we're there. If we can joke about it without anyone getting hurt, that's a sure sign that we're good again.

Marty: Yes. Yeah.

Alex: It, it's a quality of space. It's, uh, I wouldn't, uh, I, we, we know when we're there and we are know, we're not there. Um,

Marty: Got it. Got it.

Alex: there is this moment of trust process. We get back there. At the moment, it's, it's really lost. But, uh, I don't know. It feels like the normal place where we are. So when we are not there, it feels like.

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Marty: Yeah.

Bill: Fs, through the if FS lens, it might be spoken about in terms of levels of access to self energy. Mm-hmm.

Bill: The shared self energy. Yes. Yes. Yeah. about 10 minutes left here and there's, uh, I wanna make sure that we, we have some time to talk about the unconference. Before we shift though, I'd like, I'd like to make one more observation that has just come clear to me I've listened the two of you respond to my question. And that is that I learned, think that I learned how to be in connected relationship with my wife. I. When I learned how to facilitate an if FS session with a client and practice that because didn't work, I was not able to facilitate a session with a client. If I was just following the. The linear model, by step, by step by step following the strategy and the processes until it connected at a heart level and in an intuitive LE level where the, the, the, it was actually curiosity. Uh, and I could, I, I had enough self energy in curiosity during a rupture, during, during a disconnection. That I was able to shift into wanting to understand, and I would say that's a, that's a real key, the curiosity and the desire to understand when, when I'm blended with un bur, excuse me, with burden parts, often it's hard to want to understand because I want to be understood and, and so I need to take care of myself, first of all. I need to do whatever I need to do to shift into self energy. Saturday morning, I had a rupture with, with a writing group that I was with, and I, I took a 10 minute, I just called a break. I, I need to take a break. And when I left, this was on Zoom. When I left this room and I walked out, uh, I, I noticed that my body was, was shaking and that had been shaking even before I named that. What the reason I was upset of was because of what happened in the writing group. And then I realized, oh, you know, when my daughter used to describe feeling this way. When she was young, I would say, have you eaten anything? And I realized I hadn't eaten anything. I had a hard boiled egg and I drank a glass of water and the 10 minute break was up and I found that I was back to regulated again. And from that place, I had enough self energy to say, Hey, I am so sorry for the way that I was, was reacting. And, and the way I was coming across just now, lemme tell you what just happened and I want you to know it wasn't about you and you didn't deserve that. And I'm sorry. And, and so that quick, we were back into being productive in our writing team again. So I think I learned that from being trained in the IFS model, how to be really interested in what a part of me. Or of my client to tell me about themselves so that I can get to the point where I really get it. I really understood stand and, and I got, I hear that from you and Al, the two of you, pal and Alex, that you really wanna, and once you do understand, you can actually just move right into, let's laugh about this now. This was, it's so, so nice to be back to freedom, to joy, to connection again. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks for sharing your experience with that.

Alex: For sharing yours.

Bill: Tell us. Tell us about, okay. To, to shift. Now that wasn't much of a segue. There's no connection here, but can we just completely shift into the end conference?

Alex: Oh, I, I

Bill: Tell us about

Alex: for you, because we, I mean, since we met at the participatory event, and from when we started sharing about being together, working together, and, uh, also IFS for us, there was this, we want to bring a space that is more playful and more participatory and where we, I mean, we. Would play with the model. And I mean, when we are more unboard than you make fun, you have fun with your parts and with the other person parts. And it is kind of like you sometime have these silly voices of like, yeah, a part for me doesn't like that or want to do this, like, want ice cream at the moment, let's have broccoli full fine part is really happy about that. Hmm. We're so grown up and uh, and so we wanted to bring something like that. So there, there is a very segue that is very blended, connected to Woo. How we met and who we are and what we want to bring this, this way of being, of being with others. That is bring, bring ideas. Just be empowered. What, what? What do you have to share? And I think it's also very much about like going back to the notion of curiosity. For me, I noticed, I think we both noticed that I at least learn so much from the everyday life from my own clients from. And, and I noticed that the only way to learn in the IFSI environments was by being in decently hierarchical environments where there would have to be trained facilitator, elite trainer, uh, a presentation of some kind. And I was learning so much from my peers, from my friends, from Buddhists, from. My next door neighbor who was whatever, and I, I really wanted to create a space where we can really learn from one another. We had one person come to the first or second on conference who ended up bringing a horse to the unconference on Zoom, and she was talking about doing IFS with horses. And then my dear friend, who is also an IFS practitioner. Got in the car in the Netherlands, drove for three hours, met that woman with a horse, they did IFS together, and she made friends with the Chihuahua. So, you know what is impossible? so learning, dancing together and playing and exchanging ideas without having someone tell you what the right ideas are is very important. I. For me at least

Alex: In, in case, just for people that are hearing us talking and then wondering what are we talking about? Maybe can I give a two minute introduction towards. Uh, so it's, it's based on open space technology and it's, I mean, unconference because it's a conference based of the same quality that if you go to a conference you have in, during a coffee meeting in the corridor when you talk with other participants. So it's a, it's an open space where every participant can offer sessions and uh, and uh, whoever wants to come, the session comes and people can join and leave. And at the moment we have up to 12 session per time slot and up to four time slots and usually like 30, 35 sessions. And I discovered this model 12 years ago and it blew my mind in the open space technology was like, oh my God, this, this is amazing. And I learned, and also I learned to facilitate slowly, I mean both workshops and event where you bring participants to just, I. Talk with each other, and how do you do in a way that you remove the, the standard way which people will play it safe and still keep enough structure that is actually safe. So, okay, we, we can jam, we can dance. And that's actually what I brought, I mean, I arrived Play Fest from being a facilitator. So for me and IFS session was, we do the same with parts. We make everyone hurt and everybody can bring. And as long as you don't beat each other on top of the head with a stick, everything is okay. And so bringing like, well for me it completely works. IFS is. This space where everybody, everything is welcome and every everything will be heard and you have ideas. And when people start talking together, we're like, oh my God, you meant that? Oh, this is great. Let's play. And so like, let's try it happen together. And I had some experience on facilitating group meetings in a fun way. On Zoom and we tried and we were a bit like, okay, this is a bit risky because it's a very serious environment and this therapy and people talking about trauma and uh, and we tried to have this place was come and just bring your things and it, it worked with some hiccups the first few times, but so we have done. I think I counted 11 or 12. I, we are not really sure it, it's working. And so this space where people bring sessions from IFS with horses, IFS with puppets deal with the major session that people are really amazed with. We came to this like, oh my God, we take so much notes. So this is great. This is a great question and this, this is good space holding. This is amazing to very, very spiritual or strange things that I wouldn't. Organize myself, and it's great that people do and enjoy. So this is, this is container where people can, can meet each other and play. And, uh, it, for, for us, it's very true to both how we met. We like participatory events. We like events where we don't have neither to lead, nor to be led, but okay, we are all in this together. Let's, let's learn from each other, that dance with each other.

Marty: I love that. That is the, that is the main energy that I'm taking away from this conversation is dance. You

Bill: Yes.

Marty: And the dance began and we met this morning and the dance began and it, it, I think the word you've used most often in describing yourself how you of.

Bill: So let's hear, let's, uh, I'd love, uh, if you would share how folks can, you know, who do you help, who do you work with, and how can folks find you? Um, well, how can folks find us is our website, IF s-collective.com. Mm-hmm. It's right there. And we work with kinds of folks, really, mostly individuals, so leaning gently, slowly, also into working with couples.

Bill: I FS collective.com. Alex, any other ideas about that you'd like to share about who you work with?

Alex: depends, uh, I mean, I tend to be decently, uh, pragmatic. So it's, uh, it's usually people that want to flourish or, I mean, I have a subsystem called Align Your Life, so finding alignment and, uh. How to put together what are your values? And it's IFS based, but sometimes it's life planning based. Um, and I'm also a level one practitioner now getting level two, um, therapy part of IFS. So. You can also work with, uh, deeper wounds, but it, yeah, that's usually a way of getting the wound healed enough so that we can walk and run and dance. So that's, um, it can be relationship based or spiritual, uh, crisis, uh, psychedelics or meditation based, or it be people in, I mean, techies and brainiacs that are trying to feel more and be more embodied because that was my path from being. Dancing more and being more in my body, and I like helping people that want to do the same. For me. Um, it's, it's, I wanna name that, you know, I, it's not that I think IFS is the best tool for necessarily everyone. It's a wonderful tool that I can serve many. But what I do love about it also is that it can serve so many. It can serve people who are just trying to live a bolder, juicier, more fun life, and also people who are in really deep pain. So I really appreciate that it offers so much depth and so much capacity in meeting where people are actually.

Bill: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well said. And when is the next Unconference?

Alex: Good question. We're, we're, we're talking about it could be in a month and if not could be, uh, end of the summer. We

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Alex: deciding now it, it happens every. Three to five months, depending on, uh, and our, our life seems to keep on happening. So we're trying to find a weekend that

Bill: Mm-hmm.

Alex: complete completely because it, it takes, uh, a bit to host it and a bit to recover, but, um.

Bill: So someone could go to your website, ifs collective.com and, and you're gonna post when it, when the next date is. Once you know what it is. Is there also a way for them to, to subscribe so that they can be notified? right on the website? Right on the website, if you scroll down from the landing page, they can subscribe to our newsletter and they can also subscribe to our substack, where we publish things about IFS. Alex is reading a lot of beautiful content, actually about IFS and how it blends with different types of modalities and practices, uh, that are outside of I effects. So that's, that's a fun read. The

Alex: Is, uh, if FS collected with other do substack.com, but looking for if collective, you'll find us. And yeah, our Substack is also how to announce them conference and, uh, and also some other content. So it, um, we are very bad at everything else in social media. Sometimes we emerge on Facebook or Instagram, but that's not really And Telegram, we have a group on Telegram. Mm-hmm.

Bill: Robust grouping on telegraph. Okay, time to wrap up. Thanks so much for joining us. Thank you so much. Beautiful to be with you. Yeah, thank you. Was great. Nice to meet you Marty. Likewise, likewise. And looking forward to connecting more Bill. Thanks so much for time. Thank you.