Selfish, Selfless, Oneness

Marty: : Welcome everybody, and thanks for being a part of this conversation 'cause it's about you, the true you. and, and welcome to my partner and this Bill Tierney.

Bill: : Hi everybody.

Marty: : what would somebody come to you for coaching for?

Bill: : A lot of people come to me because they are seeking support in exploring their internal world using the IFS model,

Marty: : Mm-hmm. And IFS stands for

Bill: : internal family systems.

Marty: : And for people who like, that's not a concept. I know most of our listeners probably do know, but in case there's somebody on that doesn't, what is that?

Bill: : Well, before I go there, I wanna finish what I was about to tell you that your question was what do people come to me for? Uh, and, and so the first part of that answer is that many people find me and come to me because they wanna explore their internal family. Using the IFS model and,

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : and then once we connect in the 20 minute introduction that I have set up on web, my website, I explain to them that yes, I'm trained. I've been trained in using IFS for the last six years or so, but I'm a coach and not a P practitioner. Or not, not when I say I'm not a practitioner. I am a practitioner, but I'm a coach specifically.

Marty: : As opposed to a.

Bill: : Uh, therapist, right? And so IFS is, it's tricky because IFS is a therapy model, and as a coach I've really worked hard to get clear for myself and therefore to, to, to get clear with, um, prospective clients what I do and don't do. And, and so while I'm capable of just walking someone through an internal family systems exploration of their parts and trail heads. Uh, I do that in the context of coaching, meaning that I help people identify the changes that they'd like to make in their lives. And then I use the IFS model to help them discover what parts are reacting to the desire for those changes. And by doing that, we, um, build trust between the self, the authentic true you of the client

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : the parts of them that have been busily. Devotedly brilliantly trying to protect them all their lives and, and so once that happens, once trust is built, now we can begin to form alliances between the parts that would oppose the coaching objective, whatever wants to be changed,

Marty: : Right.

Bill: : and the parts that want that change. I'll have to figure out a shorter way to say that, but that's, that's who I work with. And, uh, not everybody that comes to me for IFS decides that they want coaching. Many of them want a therapist where they just focus on the healing, you know, improving functionality in their lives, figuring out ways to be more regulated and that sort of thing. And that's more in the, in the wheelhouse of therapy.

Marty: : And just outta curiosity, just to cover all the bases. Does anybody ever come to you and not want IFS? I want you to coach me, but don't do that. IFS thing.

Bill: : I haven't had that experience in the,

Marty: : a no. Got

Bill: : yeah. Yeah.

Marty: : Um, so this, our topic for today is a, is a, is an exercise that you've invented. Now, did that come out? Is it, can you that to IFS or is it unrelated?

Bill: : It is relate related for sure, but not directly. There's a story behind it, which I hope you'll allow me to indulge in.

Marty: : I.

Bill: : Okay. Okay. Another model of, um, let's just say personal development that's been around about as long maybe as. IFS is nonviolent communication and many more people, I believe, are probably familiar with nonviolent communication than internal family systems. They merge and marry nicely. Uh, I, it wasn't until this past year or so that after hearing from so many people how great INBC nonviolent communication is. I finally got the book and listened to it on my walks and my runs and my drives, and then I liked, I loved it so much. I got this, another book by Marshall Rosenberg beside, um, speaking piece was the name of the second book, essentially the same ideas. But, uh, Marshall spoke about them just in different language and in different, uh, tempo maybe than he did in the first book. And one of the first things that he talks about and teaches in his books is the idea of noticing what is alive inside.

Marty: : Hmm.

Bill: : And I, I. I loved immediately. I loved that question. What is alive and, and this is one of the ways it ties in for me with internal family systems, is that we wanna know what's happening in the internal world. Not so, not so we can change what's happening in the internal world, although that's often the, the reason we go in there in the first place.

Marty: : Yep.

Bill: : But if we go in there with an agenda to change what's happening in there,

Marty: : Pardon

Bill: : every part is going to be blocking us off.

Marty: : Uh,

Bill: : You're the one that needs to, or this guy over here needs to change, not me.

Marty: : yeah.

Bill: : Right. So what's alive inside is the, is it's just such a great invitation just to notice what's happening and, and, and just to bring broad awareness to what's happening inside. And by that, I've, I, I've come to understand. That what's alive inside means. What am I experiencing? What I'm, what am I perceiving? How am I reacting to what I'm experiencing and perceiving what's, what's alive in my nervous system? What's alive inside with my thoughts? What's alive inside with my emotions, my body sensations, my impulses and my behaviors? All of that, which is just also so useful in the internal family systems as we're trying to detect the different parts of us.

Marty: : Yeah, I Can I ask a, this is a general question that as I've been getting recently, I think it's even more poignant, um. For your, for the work that you do. But since it's calling out the internal relationship,

Bill: : Yes.

Marty: : right, the relation um, the, the what, uh, the question that number of people have raised with me, these are mostly friends, not clients,

Bill: : Yeah.

Marty: : by the way. Um, they're like, well, it sounds like the work that you guys do, they say. Isn't gonna change anything. It's just gonna have you be more in this, in this world. Like you're just gonna change your attitude toward the horrors that are out there.

Bill: : Mm. I see, I see. So you're saying that that, uh, um, your approach to coaching or your personal life philosophy is landing for people in such a way that they, that they wonder what if it has value?

Marty: : Well, frankly, they're not well informed about what I do,

Bill: : I see.

Marty: : but they have this imp and I wonder if it isn't like more pervasive than just the few people that have brought it to my attention, and I just thought, may it be worth addressing that, you know,

Bill: : Yeah. Yeah. And before I do, I'm just curious about what prompts that kind of question from your friends. Why do they ask that question?

Marty: : I think it's, they call they the word naval gazing came up, right? They think that

Bill: : Yeah,

Marty: : that we do is just like, it's all just internal. It

Bill: : just indulgent.

Marty: : doesn't really change anything

Bill: : Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Alright. Thank you. I don't, I don't, why do I think that's funny? I suppose because I remember having that kind of an attitude myself.

Marty: : Ah,

Bill: : Like, what's the point of all this navel gazing? Just, you know, is it gonna make any difference? And really, that's the question you say that they're bringing to you, right? Or, or the challenge that they have for you. What, what difference does that make in the world?

Marty: : and I, and I, uh, just to, I don't mean to get you off track from the topic, but.

Bill: : no, it's okay.

Marty: : I just, you know, I, as soon as you started talking about Marshall Rosenberg and, and the IFS internal family, I, I was reminded of that, this criticism that's out there.

Bill: : Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, so what difference does it make? And, and I'll answer you because I know that you really wanna know an answer. I'll answer because I feel safe with you, and, and I'll assume safety with my listeners. and the reason I'm setting it up, my answer in this way is because if, if I were in the presence of someone who was asking the question to set up the next hatchet to cut my head off with, I, I would probably not engage in the conversation whatsoever.

Marty: : Yep.

Bill: : it goes along with the idea that, if you wanna teach a cat to sing, it's not gonna work very well and you're gonna irritate the cat. And I am not gonna go to the hardware store if I'm a, if I'm a baker, and try to have them sell my bread for me. You gotta have the right people in front of me.

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : And those people aren't gullible people. Those are people that are open and critical self thinkers, people that take information in and consider whether or not it's valid. Whether it's interesting and whether it's something they wanna continue to pursue and get to know and understand better for themselves,

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : decide, ultimately decide for themselves what is and isn't true and what is and isn't valid and useful.

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : My answer though is, does it, does this work make a difference? And the my answer to that is absolutely it doesn't. Otherwise I wouldn't be using it with my coaching clients.

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : I, I'd already been coaching people for eight years by the time I began my training in the internal family systems model,

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : and I had effectively been able to help people make changes in their lives by using various tools to help them shift their mindset so that the impact of the way they thought about their lives was more empowering. the problem turned out to be that whatever challenge they were up against was a challenge because of their thinking. And once that thinking was examined and explored, investigated using various methods, we could shift from a more empowering perspective. And I'm not talking about positive thinking. I'm talking about what is true and what's not.

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : Looking at the facts rather than our stories about the facts, for example. So.

Marty: : That seems like really crucial matter, like if. Your mindset, this internal stuff that we're talking about is giving you, you know, filtering the data out there and giving you a false impression about what's true. Then you'd wanna get to work on that first, so that you could actually experience what's true.

Bill: : Yes, uh, but you also need to buy into an idea that I had a little trouble buying into when it was first introduced to me.

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : And that is that my suffering is related to what? How I perceive the world. And I believe that my suffering was related to what the world was doing To me.

Marty: : Yes. Right.

Bill: : This happened out there. I don't like it. Therefore I'm suffering. Therefore, I need to change what's happening out there.

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : That's fine. I'll quit my job. I'll quit this relationship. I'll move.

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : ' cause I don't like what this feels like in here. And it's your fault. So when I went to Byron Katie in 2001, when I, when I was introduced to her and she said, anytime I believe a thought that argues with reality, I suffer. But only 100% of the time, it was the first, first time I really got what Viktor Frankl's been, was talking about between stimulus and responses there, there's a space, and in that space we have the opportunity to choose. That's not exactly what he said, but basically that's it. I didn't ever get that. I mean, it sounded good, but I didn't really get that. What is, what is the stimulus, what is the space? What is the ability to respond and choose what? Until Byron Katie really helped me see that even the reverse of what she said is true. She said, when I argue with reality, I suffer.

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : That's a, that's a whole conversation right there. If we've reversed that, I'll finish this thought and then I wanna hear your question or your thought. If I'm suffering, it's because I'm arguing with reality.

Marty: : Yeah. Yep. Mm-hmm.

Bill: : You were about to say something.

Marty: : Well, I liked your approach. it sort of says, I'm being very general here, but like, it works, you know, this is why we do it, because it works, you know,

Bill: : Right.

Marty: : and I think that then the. Then your interlocutor can just either try it or not and find out. Um, I think the mistake that I've made is when answering this, is that I go into this more explained explanation about, how the true you. it's what's generating what you consider real. really the source of it all. And that's a pretty big step to take. And I've already lost them. And I get to go on to explain how that, how that really works. I like your approach better. It's just like, well, I think you'll see it works. And then you've got a little bit of an extra explanation. Why? Because if you're suffering, you're outta sync with reality, you know? And, and.

Bill: : And if I'm suffering, I'm disempowered. And if what causes suffering is I'm misaligned with reality, then

Marty: : Okay.

Bill: : I do to get aligned with reality?

Marty: : Yeah, so I take it that these, I don't, I don't wanna cut you off from this conversation, but I'm also feeling a little like I am taking away from where you want it to go.

Bill: : Well, lemme, lemme tell the story. Uh, and, and so the topic, the name of this podcast episode is probably gonna be si six Prompts for Connection and.

Marty: : Six prompts for connection.

Bill: : Yeah, I was, I was gonna call it six questions for, for connection, but it's actually prompts similar questions and some are suggestions. And uh, the idea is that, uh, when we're in relationship with another human being and we wanna feel connected in that relationship, that this practice, if there, if there's an absence of connection, we'll bring connection.

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : To the relationship

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : using that word that you used just a moment ago, misalignment. If there's a misalignment in the relationship, we're missing each other. We're not aligned and we're not connecting. We feel that, and and even today, even now in my relationship with my wife, we've been married now for 12 years. We've been together for about 14 when, when things happen inside that are uncomfortable. In my relationship with her, I have a tendency to think it's her. It never has been, and, and that doesn't mean that she's a perfect human being any anymore or less perfect than I am or anybody else is. It just means that it goes back to what Byron Katie said. My perception of what's been happening is what's causing my suffering. So if something's happening inside, I'm suffering. That I'm suffering over, it's because of my perception and I can be mad at her and I can want to have her talk to me differently or treat me differently or be more forthcoming or whatever it would be.

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : And that actually could make me feel better if she did. Gosh, if she would just say she was sorry. I, I might feel better for a minute, but, but now I have a dependency. I almost an addiction. If that's the case, if that's the, what I set up in relationships is that in order for me to feel okay, I need someone to take responsibility for making me feel the way, feel un okay, that's a mess, that's a dysfunctional unworkable mess. And it's an unending dysfunctional cycle. Alright, so Kathy and I are celebrating 12 years of marriage. By traveling from Spokane, Washington to Seattle, about a four and a half hour drive. I love road trips and we drive to Seattle, we go to an Airbnb and she's got this agenda set out for what we're gonna do for the next four or five days before we turn around and come back and, uh, you know, it's all good stuff. It really is. All good. Happy stuff. What isn't good and happy is the tension that I feel in the passenger seat of her car being driven around Seattle to places I haven't fully chosen. Not her fault, mine that, that I haven't, I haven't fully chosen the activities that we're gonna be engaged in. I'm kind of going along to get along. I'm complying.

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : The traffic is thick and scary for me and for Kathy. So she's got tension just from being in the traffic. I've got tension from not being in control and

Marty: : got some point of attention.

Bill: : there's tension. And the tension continues to build and build and build. And here we are trying to celebrate our 12 year anniversary and which is just such a wonderful thing. And yet we're not liking each other very much because there's this, this tension and we're not talking. And I'll just speak for myself. And in my mind, my parts are making it her fault.

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : And I've got the capacity to be able to, to keep most of that down. I'm not gonna say it, I'm not gonna be mean, I'm not gonna be nasty. I'm not gonna blame, I'm not gonna pick a fight. But people are intuitive. We pick up, we sense each other's energy. She sensed my tension and my needing to control myself and hold back and, and I sensed hers. Finally, day five, we turn around and as planned and we're coming back to Spokane. And when we finally get outta Seattle traffic, in other words, when the external environment quit pushing so hard on our, both of our capacity to be with it, we

Marty: : Hmm,

Bill: : both relaxed enough to be able to begin to have a conversation about how that five days had gone.

Marty: : huh.

Bill: : And I brought it up and I said, you know. Lemme just acknowledge that there's been a lot of tension between us on this trip, something like that.

Marty: : Yeah.

Bill: : And over the next, you know, 20 minutes or so, it was kind of a difficult, difficult, scary conversation to acknowledge what had had happened. Because what wanted to be said by some of my parts, and maybe by some of hers, was, whose fault was it? Who and, and who, who made, who made this mess? And who's responsible for cleaning it up?

Marty: : Which I mean, and I think most people, their knee jerk reaction would be, well, I'm, I'm good over here, it's your fault.

Bill: : I've been, I've been suppressing all this stuff that I, that, and I've saved you from me. Be because you know, you've, you, it's your fault. Yeah.

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : And yet, look at the Saint Lee behavior on my part.

Marty: : I mean, even at times

Bill: : Okay.

Marty: : know it's me, you know, like tension between me and somebody else, and I know it's me. I'm Bri. I know that I'm not clean here. It's still hard.

Bill: : Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Marty: : hard,

Bill: : Well if if, for example, if I admit it to any part of this, then, then she's just gonna let me take all of it.

Marty: : Right.

Bill: : She's not gonna take any responsibility at all. Now, this is coming from a part of me that tells that story not be not based on any experience with her.

Marty: : Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bill: : demonstrated over and over and again that she's willing to take responsibility for, for what she contributes to any kind of disconnection.

Marty: : Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bill: : So the ice is broken. Now, some of the scary things that, that neither one of us wanted to say. We said we acknowledged the hurts. We acknowledged the things that, that, that happened that hurt us. Um, and then the, the conversation shifted and I said, I'd really like to discover to, even if we have to create it ourselves, something that we can do so that this doesn't happen again, other than being hermits and staying at home and never going out anywhere because at home we, we do just fine. We have a little tension in the kitchen just because it's a relatively small kitchen and

Marty: : What do you think about not being home contributed to the tension?

Bill: : the unpredictability of anything outside of these walls,

Marty: : Ah.

Bill: : other people, traffic, weather conditions, you know, it's, it's really safe here. We've got a nice, safe, comfortable, predictable house, uh, uh, home and life here in this home.

Marty: : Okay.

Bill: : We don't let a lot of people into the home because the energy is sacred to us.

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : And when somebody does come into the home, we, we, we pay really close attention to managing how that's gonna go so that we can stay, feel safe and comfortable and warm. And this does get into the topic I think that I wanna talk about next week if, unless something else comes up. And that is the capacity. I'll touch on it just briefly here. And that is that. It appears that those of us that still have unhealed trauma are, entering every single day with a diminished act, access to capacity to be with whatever shows up in life because there's so much going on inside that's being managed for us unconsciously and automatically, it's using so much of our capacity. And so both Kathy and I have nervous systems that are somewhat compromised by trauma. I won't speak for her and her trauma, but I'll just tell you that we're a good match. I've got X amount of trauma. She's got X amount of trauma. Our parts are busy managing all of that trauma force us. I'm working really, really hard to heal as much of that trauma as I possibly can, and I do it for a living and I help other people, and yet I have a diminished amount of capacity. So my nervous system, when it, when it exceeds, when, when my experiences with the external world exceed the demands of my available capacity, I get begin to get overwhelmed and dysregulated.

Marty: : So a big part of you is with dealing with the, the, the outside world, and so there's less capacity to be with your wife, for example.

Bill: : That's right. Or, or any minor irritation that might, might flare up between,

Marty: : reminds me of my dad coming home from work.

Bill: : yeah.

Marty: : when he'd first came home from work, he was impossible. You know, once he got all that off his chest, uh, you know, I'd go out and play or go down in the basement and, um, then he blew up at mom and he got all that. Then, you know, when we sat down to dinner, you know, he's a little bit nicer to deal with, but he didn't have the capacity at first.

Bill: : Um, so we got through the, the ice, the, the, it was cracked. It was broken. We're swimming around in the cold water together, trying to survive it. And I, and I make the suggestion, why don't we just create a process? And she said, do you have something in mind? And I said, yeah, I think, I think that if we can maybe come up with a set of questions that we answer. For ourselves and then at least once a week get together and share our answers to these questions with each other. My theory is that it's gonna create connection and, and it'll address any tension that might build up. And I'm not saying we don't address that tension, let you know that we only do that once a week. I'm saying that we do it once a week and then my guess would be that once we begin to find out what works and what doesn't. It will get, be comfortable to use it anytime throughout the week. But the minimum commitment is once a week we get together, we answer these questions, we share them with each other, and then try to,

Marty: : day on a to Seattle.

Bill: : You're saying that if we were to engage in that process every single day and when things tension starts building up?

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : Oh, absolutely. This would work. You bet. So here's the questions that she and I co-created together. Uh, on that trip back. So by the way, that, like I said, that's about a four, four and a half hour trip. We began talking just the east side of Issaquah and we were still talking in this conversation as we pulled up into our driveway in Liberty Lake, Washington on the east side of state. We start on the west side of the state and by the time we get home on the east side of the state, we're still talking about it.

Marty: : Wow.

Bill: : And the reason we're still talking about it is because we are so connected, we're talking about. Things that have happened in the past, examples of how this tension has mounted and how, how this, this process would've made such a difference if we'd had, if we'd had it known to do it. So here it is.

Marty: : Okay.

Bill: : Prompt number one,

Marty: : Get out your pens folks.

Bill: : what is alive inside. Thank you Marshall Rosenberg. What is alive inside?

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : And so now it's been, I think I, I wanna say it's been eight, nine weeks since we started this process. And, and I've got a notebook. That says Kathy connection on the, on the front of it. And every week, Sunday morning, some, somewhere between the time I get up at noon, I fill out the Kathy Connection prompts, these six prompts for connection and, and just answer whatever's alive in that moment.

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : And it doesn't have to be, especially what's related to Kathy,

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : but what's alive inside for me right now. Well, I wanna get back to editing my book. Um, I can't wait to watch the Seahawks played this morning. Um, I'm sad to see that the, the sun is, is going down sooner and, and, and coming up later. What's alive?

Marty: : so aliveness. So sadness is as much alive as happiness.

Bill: : Yeah.

Marty: : Okay.

Bill: : Yeah. Whatever's alive. I've got this, I've got a pain in my lower back and I'm worried about it. I think I'm probably have cancer. I'm gonna die. Um. You know, whatever. I, I, I didn't, I didn't mean to be flippant about that, but that's the way my parts think, so

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : just reporting whatever's alive inside, whether it's valid or not.

Marty: : Well, I was just getting clarity on aliveness. 'cause you know, some people might say, well, I feel there's more aliveness when I feel like going out and playing

Bill: : Yeah.

Marty: : there is when I'm feeling sad and lonely.

Bill: : Mm-hmm.

Marty: : You want all of that, that all

Bill: : That, that's right. Yeah. The, the example that you just gave is, yeah, I feel more alive when I'm wanting to go out and play.

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : Uh, there's sometimes what that, what's alive inside is a deadness.

Marty: : Okay. That's perfect. Yes. Sometimes what's alive inside is a deadness. Okay. That's question number one. Prompt number one.

Bill: : Yeah. Problem number two. Does anything feel unresolved right now? Now, this is, again, it's not specific to our relationship.

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : But certainly we wanna include anything that, that is specific to our relationship. So I, I only made it to page 40 on my edits today. I wanted to get to page 50. What feels unresolved is that I am still waiting on an answer from, um, my publisher, and I've been waiting for over a week. What feels unresolved is that something happened day before yesterday and I said something to you and ever, ever since I said it, I'm wondering. How that landed for you. And I just haven't asked because I guess I've been a little too scared to ask.

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : Those are some examples,

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : and this is the first, uh, uh, of the prompts that has me, and actually this applies to ev every one of the prompts is do I have a request? So I'm sharing this with Kath. I'm gonna be sharing this with Kathy. I wanna ask myself, given what's unresolved, do I have a request? An example of that would be, can we talk about. What happened inside for you when I said that thing to you the other day?

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : Uh, another request might be, um, I have a request. I noticed that my nervous system gets, um, activated when you and I both take a break at the same time and we're both in the kitchen. Uh, and so my, my request is that that, um, either you be in the kitchen or I'd be in the kitchen.

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : So I, so I can manage my nervous system a little bit better.

Marty: : Mm-hmm. Could it be something like. I'm so preoccupied and and anxious about this job interview I have tomorrow, and I just like like just don't talk to me for 12 hours.

Bill: : It could be. And that's going to activate probably something and something's gonna come, come alive inside for her then at that point. And, and, uh, and that's okay. That's really okay if that's what my request is.

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : Uh, but the, that gets to our next one, which is what feels scary to talk about.

Marty: : Hmm. Good one.

Bill: : That would be really a good time to bring up, yeah. I, I have a part that thinks that really what I need given the, the job interview that's coming up and that I'm so concerned about is just space to myself.

Marty: : Yeah.

Bill: : And what feels scary about that is that I'm afraid you're gonna take that personally and think that, that I think that you're a problem or that I don't wanna be with you when, in fact, I just think that my nervous system needs very little input from anything and anyone.

Marty: : Right. Right. Got it. Mm-hmm. It feels scary to talk about. I mean, it'd be very easy to say, well, it's too scary.

Bill: : Yeah. Or to not say it and keep it a secret.

Marty: : Yeah, talk about something else.

Bill: : Yes. Yeah. How about the Mariners?

Marty: : So, um, there any, way to make sure that you're re saying what's really, or you know, you just deal with what you can express at this

Bill: : You do, you just do the best you can with it. But that's what we're doing. It's just the best that we can, and we're learning how much we can trust each other. You, it seems like an odd thing to say 'cause I, I've never trusted a woman more than I trust Kathy ever. I. Um, and, and yet it still feels too scary to say things sometimes.

Marty: : Yeah, I had a client once who, um, he was just. Blowing smoke at me for a number of weeks it just, I, I was like, well, it just didn't feel right. There was no more information forthcoming, but it seemed like there was something he wasn't talking to me about. Well, finally he came out about, you know, that he had been cheating on his wife, and he did. It was too scary to talk about

Bill: : Oh, mm-hmm.

Marty: : until the time that it was no longer too scary to

Bill: : Yeah, yeah,

Marty: : Yeah.

Bill: : Yeah, that's, that. May have very well have happened finally, because he trusted you.

Marty: : Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Bill: : At least maybe that was one element that that came into. What, what would you say you think that that played into it? That he trusted you more by then?

Marty: : yeah. I'm very probably, yeah, I, I can't read his mind.

Bill: : Sure.

Marty: : ask that, but probably, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Bill: : So,

Marty: : think also that, well, nevermind. Let's not get off on that. Go

Bill: : so we're at, we've, we've covered three. What's alive inside? Does anything feel unresolved right now? And what feels scary to talk about and the fourth, um, is what needs to be said. That hasn't been,

Marty: : There was a third one was, do I have a request?

Bill: : oh, do I have a request follows each of these

Marty: : Oh, I

Bill: : given what feels unresolved. Do I have a request given what feels scary to talk about? Do I have a request?

Marty: : Gotcha.

Bill: : know, so that, I'm glad you pointed that out because if we go back to what feels scary to talk about, I might have to make a request before I feel enough courage to talk about what feels scary.

Marty: : Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bill: : The request might be, even if you have an internal reaction as I share this with you, can you hold it until I say, until I say the whole thing?

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : Can you try.

Marty: : that's, that's better version of what than what I often hear is like, don't get mad at me when I tell you this. Oh shit, I'm already mad,

Bill: : Well, you're trapped. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. You're gonna tell me how to feel now, huh?

Marty: : People do that to each other all the time. Now I have to tell this to you, but I don't want you to get

Bill: : And don't tell anybody else

Marty: : Right,

Bill: : And by the way, don't tell anybody else is a valid request. But, uh, a valid answer to that is I then don't tell me. Because I, I don't want the pressure of not telling anybody else

Marty: : Yeah.

Bill: : if this, if the only way you can share this with me is to, is to have me keep it a secret. And you've been keeping it a secret. Don't put that on me.

Marty: : Right.

Bill: : Of course, everything's d you know, every circumstance is different, but, but

Marty: : we're up

Bill: : yep.

Marty: : four then, right?

Bill: : Four is, uh, anti climactic. It's what, what needs to be said that hasn't been. So if, if after what feels unresolved and what feels scary to talk about you, you'd think, well, what's left for them then to be said, and I've never left that blank,

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : what needs to be said? That hasn't been Sometimes all that's left. I have written, I haven't told you how much I love you lately. I haven't told you how much I appreciated that you did that thing for me the other day.

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : I noticed when I told you I'd do the dishes and then went to bed, you washed them for me anyhow. Thank you.

Marty: : Right. you know, this whole time that's been so scary to talk to you about this thing I've been, I've just been, this is what my client said to me. Actually, come to think of it. He said, I was so scared to tell you about it because, uh, the, the conversation we were having over those couple of weeks was about integrity.

Bill: : Oh. I can see that. Yeah. Yeah. Wow.

Marty: : that I'd, I've told you the out integrity, I can tell you that, you know, that's what was keeping me from saying you couldn't have said that before.

Bill: : Yeah,

Marty: : So there's always more that needs to be said.

Bill: : it seems like it in, in fact, now that you say that, I, I'm wondering if maybe Kathy and I will challenge each other to find one more thing to say. What is one more thing that could be said? Maybe it's not necessary, maybe it doesn't feel necessary, but what's one more thing that could be said that hasn't been said yet?

Marty: : I realize that this tension isn't really about you, it's about the big city.

Bill: : Yes, and that all came out by the way, thanks to these questions. And, and we came up with some strategies for if we're gonna do something like that again. And we didn't get very far. And, and she said, no, no, I don't want to do anything like that again.

Marty: : Okay.

Bill: : So then the discussion moved on to, and we'd like to get, you know, get away sometimes. So what would that look like? Yeah. And, and we talked about other, other ways. We could get away and actually be less, have it be less stressful,

Marty: : Got it. Excellent.

Bill: : which goes back to the capacity conversation again. So I'm sure that we'll be referring back to this conversation next week when we talk about capacity.

Marty: : Okay. I have the capacity to do that.

Bill: : What does your week look like? That seems like really flimsy, but there it is. What does your week look like between my wife and I? That's a really important question. Turns out. 'cause my week impacts her and her week impacts me.

Marty: : Uh.

Bill: : I didn't know you were, you were gonna be gone all day today. Well, yeah. That's why I'm telling you now. My plan is,

Marty: : this huge presentation coming up and it's, you know, it's probably affecting my mood the way I'm patience right now.

Bill: : yeah.

Marty: : Oh, didn't know you had that in your calendar.

Bill: : and even physical presence. I, I'm planning on meeting with Joe, let's say at 10 o'clock at the coffee shop, and Joe and I, we get carried away. I might not be back till one. Just wanted to let you know that's where I'm at and that's what I'm, what I'm doing.

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : This reminds me a little bit of, uh, conversation that I had with my second wife when, when I was playing the role. Of people, pleaser, compli just, just, uh, comply, comply or die. I had this fear that she was just so fierce and she was, but, but that, that I was gonna do something wrong and that she was gonna hurt me with her words if I did. And I still busy guessing what, where the, where the landmines were in that relationship. And I seemed like, I always guessed wrong. So I thought I had this one handled pretty well and I said, Hey, would it be okay with you? I, I just got a call from Phil and, and Phil wants me to go golfing on, on Saturday at one o'clock. Okay with you. Did I go And her response was, what are you, my son?

Marty: : Hmm.

Bill: : Do you think you have to ask my permission to go golfing?

Marty: : Hmm.

Bill: : I thought, oh, great. I said, well, I'm going, I'm going golfing at one o'clock. And she says, what? You're just gonna go golfing at one o'clock without talking to me about it? I said, what? I can't win here.

Marty: : She was kidding

Bill: : No, no.

Marty: : Oh.

Bill: : And, uh, so I said, what, what? Isn't that what we're doing right now? And she said, you're, you asked my permission as if you were a little boy. And then you just told me what you're gonna do as if it, it has no impact on me.

Marty: : Hmm,

Bill: : You going golfing when we have a little baby at home for six hours. Right? That's how long it takes you to go golfing. You're just gonna leave and you're just assume I'm, I'm gonna take care of the baby and that I don't need your help. Yeah, that feels disrespectful.

Marty: : I see. So this, what does your week look like? is there, can you give us some guidance? Is it just about sharing schedules?

Bill: : Pretty much, although interestingly, uh, because Kathy and I both work full-time and we have so many outside of work activities that we're engaged in, when, when we, when I look on Sunday morning. At what, Monday through Saturday or Monday through Sunday for the next week. Looks like I, I realized, oh, there's, there's, I didn't talk to her about this. I didn't need, I need to talk to her about this. Oh, I need her help with that. Oh, this is gonna have an impact on her

Marty: : Uh. Right. I'm not gonna be here for six hours and the baby might need being fed and you're gonna be have to do it 'cause I can't be here.

Bill: : Right. I, I can't be, or I want to be gone for six hours and I realize that's gonna have an impact on you and you're gonna need to take care of the baby.

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : I'm wondering if we can brainstorm how that could work out. Do you do, are you willing to do that? Do I need to arrange to try to get some help? Is it gonna work for your schedule?

Marty: : Interesting. Yeah.

Bill: : And all that stuff can feel scary to talk about.

Marty: : Right, right.

Bill: : So a lot of what does your week look like and maybe what does my week look like? Should be something I walk into the harder conversations with first, because it, now that we're talking about it right now, and you and me, Marty, what if that question was, uh, second question instead of the first one or the instead of the fifth one. What does my week look like now? Brings up all kinds of things that, that might feel scary to talk about, that need to be said. That feels unresolved. Yeah.

Marty: : Yeah.

Bill: : And, um, I'm gonna take that suggestion and try it. Um, plans and expectations. That's what number five is all about. What does your week look like? Plans, expectations, impact, and, and requests

Marty: : Plans, expectations,

Bill: : impact.

Marty: : impact, and requests. Mm-hmm.

Bill: : Yeah. And by the way, I wanna mention too that more than just what's alive inside Marshall Rosenberg and Nonviolent communication has helped with this communication as well. Like what feels scary to say is that I'm making up that when you pass me and don't say anything to me that you don't like me very much. Is that what's going on? That's a mar, that's a nonviolent communication way to address. Uh, a worry, concern or fear that's going on inside without excusing or blaming the other person. I'm imagining that I'm making up that

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : what a great tool that is. I'm, I get to take ownership of it

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : and part of owning it is, yes, I have this voice inside that once that is making up a story about you. So I'm, I'm just checking it out now.

Marty: : Right, right. And, and if it's, if it, if it's not true, that it's that person's responsibility to let it go.

Bill: : Or Yeah. Yes. Or do whatever they're gonna do and they can get mad. That's, that certainly would make it hard to do that. That'd be one of those things that's scary to talk, talk about.

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : Yeah. But, but what this does is ask both partners to bring themselves and be fully responsible for their experi experience.

Marty: : Right.

Bill: : And to the degree that both partners can do that and they, they're gonna do it more. And what Kathy and I have discovered is that we're more and more capable every week of doing this better.

Marty: : Uhhuh.

Bill: : And then finally, number six. And, and this, you know, all of those questions you notice were questions. Number six is not a question. It is a prompt. Acknowledge our commitments to each other. And so outta these conversations come commitments. Oh, you know, you're right. I did. I forgot to, I forgot to take the garbage out. And I told you that that's something I was gonna do. And now we've got garbage piled up for two weeks. So my commitment to you is that I'm gonna set an alarm on my clock and make sure that I never forget to do that again. That's my intention. Let's see how I'm doing on that two weeks later. Yep. I haven't forgotten the garbage two weeks later. Yeah. You know, I told you that when. Uh, I began to feel some tension that I wouldn't wait till Sunday, that I'd bring it up much, much sooner than that. And, um, I feel like I've been doing pretty good at that. There was that time on Thursday that I felt this tension. I brought it up and it felt like it got resolved. How was that for you?

Marty: : Mm-hmm. I can imagine layers of commitment here too. Like I don't know what I'm committed to around this. Tension that we, that we've just talked about, but I do know that I'm committed to being married to you.

Bill: : That's really great. I love that. And, and you know, having you bring that up reminds me of something that you helped me to identify in terms of my commitments. I believe that we might've been talking about something that I had had signed up for and was having a hard time fulfilling on. Um, and you asked me who would I be, who was I gonna be moving forward?

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : And, and you helped me identify five ways of being that I then wrote down and have had taped to. My monitor represents I'm gonna be grounded. I'm committed to being grounded, to being present, to being compassionate, to being discerning, and to being generous. And that's sitting here reminding me. So sometimes we kind of do need that structure to remind us of what we are committed to. And that can be a commitment all in itself. I'm gonna build some structure so I don't forget this commitment.

Marty: : Right. Well, I don't know if you read my newsletter today,

Bill: : I didn't get

Marty: : um.

Bill: : a.

Marty: : I see, well, I'm moving the newsletter from a closed group that I send an email to, you know, through MailChimp. moving it over to Substack and I am identify in the letter that I invite people to follow me over. And, you know, the certain things about, you know, the. The tenor, the, the, the energy of that letter when it was initiated was all about, you know, promoting my business and, you know, stirring up some hype and getting things in motion and that had that kind of, you know, energy and that my commitment now on Substack is. Contentment, compassion, but I forget there were four things. Beauty is one of them. so, you know, like that's what you can count on from me going forward. acknowledging that commitment in the tone and, and the, of the, of the newsletter.

Bill: : Nice. That's great. Well, Marty, what else would you like to um say regarding this topic?

Marty: : Well, I, I just foresee, um, somebody saying, well, you know, when we talk in our coaching call, I can do all this stuff. That's fine. I, that's what I pay you for. But I don't see my wife or my husband, I don't see my spouse or this good friend of mine who I'm, you know, I'm in the doghouse with. I don't see them wanting to sit down and answer these questions like, is there a way to soften somebody up or is there an easier set of six questions?

Bill: : That's, that's great. I, I encourage anybody that is in that situation to modify these and maybe design questions that meet them closer to what they, what their capacity is, what they're capable of, and what they feel may be courageous enough to attempt. But, but let's have it be at least on the edge of, or be slightly beyond the comfort zone. Because otherwise we're just doing what we've always done.

Marty: : Right, right, right. I just, I know that I've had people when I give them assignments and coaching, you know, okay, go now and, and ask your wife these questions, uh, or ask your boss these questions oftentimes, I, I don't think I could do that with them, you

Bill: : Mm-hmm.

Marty: : So you're saying, well, if you need to redesign them, but make sure that you're, you're on the edge of, of what you, you're saying new things to each other.

Bill: : So yeah, make sure you're leaning in the direction of possibility rather than predictability.

Marty: : Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, and if somebody felt still like, uh, I don't know, would you say do it anyway

Bill: : No, no, no, no, no. Notice that there's, there's an internal resistance to taking that action and make friends with the resistance. What I mean by that is bring attention to it, bring conscious awareness of it. Just really notice and distinguish the nature of that resistance. What am I feeling in my body? When I think about the, the, how challenging this might be for me? What thoughts do I have? What stories do I tell. What emotion am I experiencing and I, and what inside me is reacting to this? Because I am not consciously creating this resistance.

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : not deliberately on, on purpose pushing back.

Marty: : Right, right.

Bill: : I, I, I might wanna own that, so I feel like I have some power over it. But, but acknowledge that it's real, that it's happening on an, in an automatically unconsciously, and that there's nothing that you can do to stop it as much as you'd like to.

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : You can, you can try to distract yourself. You can like go watch a ball game or turn on TV or go go to the refrigerator and eat something and see if that takes care of it. But something inside is really got, has really got something to say. So I'm being asked, it's being suggested. Marty and Bill are saying, try these six prompts with my partner. That terrifies me. Okay, so maybe what, maybe I'm not ready for that. Maybe what I can do instead is get curious about what part of me is terrified. What, what is the story that part has about what's gonna happen if I try this? And then can I maybe use the IFS model or any other method to explore that and befriend the part of me that's trying to somehow just know that that part is somehow trying to protect me and is afraid that if I do this thing, something bad's gonna happen. And then can I be grateful to that part for its efforts to, to help, to, to keep me safe?

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : And now what question would I feel? What, what could I do to create more connection with my partner? First of all, do I even want that? I do. I even want more connection with my partner. Why would I? Well, and let me answer that. The reason I want more connection with Kathy is because that's what intimacy is. Even before anything physical happens, intimacy happens in the space between us, the energy that we exchange with each other, and if that energy's aligned, we feel connected. And if it's misaligned, we feel disconnected, and now I'm living alone with another person that irritates the shit outta me.

Marty: : This seems really, really important. I, I know we're coming close to the end, but I wanna really underscore that, and this goes back to the naval gazing conversation, that the, that buy. Examining what's going on inside you if you're resisting six prompts to restore connection, right? That, that, that there's a difference made. When you're in connection with your own feelings, there's a connection that automatically changes toward the world.

Bill: : Beautifully said, if, if we are connected internally, if we're connected with ourself, then, then we have the capacity to connect with the world. And very often it just happens that we feel more connected with the world be because we're more connected with ourselves.

Marty: : Exactly. Exactly.

Bill: : We, we, we, however, it does require receptive. It does require re someone to re to receive and be willing to exchange that connectivity.

Marty: : Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right. And if, yeah, and if connection is what you want and you can't get that from a certain somebody.

Bill: : Yeah. Well then, then it's not gonna hurt too bad because you're already connected to yourself

Marty: : Right,

Bill: : I'm, I kind of think that, and this is.

Marty: : you have a better idea as well of what the actual kind of connection is that you want and need

Bill: : Yeah,

Marty: : so that you can, you can articulate it in reality.

Bill: : it's, it's kinda like the, not that thing. Um, do you know what you want? Not really. But it's not that,

Marty: : It's not that.

Bill: : and it's not that. It's not, oh, it's that, I don't know until I discover it. And then once we discover. For me a good, um, a good example of this is that I lived my life at a le such a level of suffering that I didn't know that anything was possible for, for the longest time. I would have to say honestly, for the first 46, 47 years of my life, I suffered most of the time. And to have an experience that was an outlier to that made me want more of that, I wanted more of that outlier of, of the absence of suffering. Uh, maybe even some joy every once in a while. And, uh, I began to notice after I learned how to go inside and, and work with that which caused my suffering in the first place, my thinking

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : that I started having some good days, I started really enjoying myself. I started having the capacity to be present and it, and it became more the norm that I wasn't suffering and less the norm that I was. And now I'm 70 years old. In my life, I don't suffer hardly ever. And when I suffer, I don't suffer. Well, I find it really intolerable to suffer when I know what it's like to not to live a life where I'm not suffering.

Marty: : Right, right. And, and just back to, and when you're not suffering, the world is there in a very, it's, you're, you're connected in a, in a new way.

Bill: : That's right. That's right.

Marty: : You know, I mean, it's that just to like, if, if I've had a really good connection with a client on a, on a coaching call, and then I go out to do my grocery shopping or something, it just feels like I, I'm in love with everybody, you know?

Bill: : Yeah. You're Julie. Julie Andrews. Just dancing through the, dancing through the grocery store.

Marty: : Right. Julies was my, my dad's favorite actress.

Bill: : why not? She's great. She was great.

Marty: : but the, but it's different if you, know, if you're suffering, you're, you're there's, it's like, there's, you're like that Peanuts character that's got the dirt around him

Bill: : Linus,

Marty: : Not

Bill: : oh, it's not

Marty: : Pigpen

Bill: : pen. Thank you. Yeah.

Marty: : Pigpen.

Bill: : Yeah.

Marty: : so it's like, there's, there's this, you're not connecting 'cause you've got this pig pen around you.

Bill: : Great. That's a great image. Alright, so lemme just, lemme state these six prompts one more time and then we, then we'll go. I'm pushing it for time. Number one, what's alive inside? Number two, does anything feel unresolved right now? And do I have a request? Number three, what feels scary to talk about? And do I have a request? Number four, what needs to be said that hasn't been, and do I have a request? Number five, what does your week look like? What does my week look like? Let's talk about plans, expectations, impact and re and, and any requests that we have out of that. And number six, let me acknowledge my commitment to you. Let's, let me acknowledge the commitments you made to me. Let's see how we're doing. Acknowledge our commitments to each other. Thanks for indulging me here, Marty. I just really love this conversation.

Marty: : Oh, thanks is our all of us that benefiting from the work that you and Kathy did so that we can all have more connection. Thank you.

Bill: : You know what I never said this whole time that we talked though is the difference it made. You asked a question earlier, does this naval gazing make any difference?

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : We are connected and we have remained connected now for the past eight, nine weeks. Ever since we began this. We, we have reconnected.

Marty: : your desk right now just holding her so she doesn't say anything. She's connected to you.

Bill: : We're feeling, we're feeling that connection and that intimacy that, that began to disappear. And that trip to Seattle really pointed out, I mean, that had already been happening before Seattle, but we didn't know how to acknowledge it or maybe even how to perceive it.

Marty: : Mm-hmm.

Bill: : Okay. Thank you.

Marty: : a good men's group.

Bill: : Thank you. We'll see you next time. Bye.